OT: Are protons really quantum black holes?
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OT: Are protons really quantum black holes?
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Rich Grise, Plainclothes
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:22 am    Post subject: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
Hi. :-)

I'm about to embark on a websearch that could ultimately tell me some
of the numbers about protons and black holes.

Everybody's heard of a proton, right?

And practically everybody (at least english-speaking internet geeks)
has heard of a black hole, right?

I wonder if anybody's done comparative numbers on the effective mass
vs. dimensions of the two. Like, are they conceptually equivalent,
or could, maybe, protons (and their sisters, neutrons) actually _BE_
teeny, tiny, infinitesimallyy smalll BLACK HOLES?????

Thanks,
Rich

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Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
In sci.physics Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie <fff@example.com> wrote:
Quote:
Hi. :-)

I'm about to embark on a websearch that could ultimately tell me some
of the numbers about protons and black holes.

Everybody's heard of a proton, right?

And practically everybody (at least english-speaking internet geeks)
has heard of a black hole, right?

I wonder if anybody's done comparative numbers on the effective mass
vs. dimensions of the two. Like, are they conceptually equivalent,
or could, maybe, protons (and their sisters, neutrons) actually _BE_
teeny, tiny, infinitesimallyy smalll BLACK HOLES?????

A charged black hole has a maximum charge-to-mass ratio, and a spinning
black hole has a maximum angular momentum-to-mass ratio. If these are
exceeded, you don't have an event horizon, but instead have a "naked
singularity."

The charges and spins of all known elementary particles far exceed this
maximum value.

So, no, the proton can't be a black hole.

Steve Carlip
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Ian Parker
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
Do you mean are quarks black holes because a proton consists of 3
quarks.

Yes I suppose it is possible to construct a Theory of Everything
through black holes and the spin of multidimensional black holes but I
have never seen it done.

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john jardine
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
"Ian Parker" <ianparker2@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132687632.996955.254730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Do you mean are quarks black holes because a proton consists of 3
quarks.

Yes I suppose it is possible to construct a Theory of Everything
through black holes and the spin of multidimensional black holes but I
have never seen it done.


It might though account for that 80% of the known universe curiously mislaid
by the paid specialists :-)

regards
john
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Ignoramus1487
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:22:59 GMT, Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie <fff@example.com> wrote:
Quote:
Hi. :-)

I'm about to embark on a websearch that could ultimately tell me some
of the numbers about protons and black holes.

Everybody's heard of a proton, right?

And practically everybody (at least english-speaking internet geeks)
has heard of a black hole, right?

I wonder if anybody's done comparative numbers on the effective mass
vs. dimensions of the two. Like, are they conceptually equivalent,
or could, maybe, protons (and their sisters, neutrons) actually _BE_
teeny, tiny, infinitesimallyy smalll BLACK HOLES?????

Rich, try doing it as a homework exercise, it is very easy.

Since the mass and "size" of protons is about the same as neutrons,
and we know that densely packed "neutron matter" does not collapse, we
can conclude that protons are not miniature black holes.

i
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Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
carlip-nospam@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:

Quote:
In sci.physics Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie <fff@example.com> wrote:

Hi. :-)


I'm about to embark on a websearch that could ultimately tell me some
of the numbers about protons and black holes.


Everybody's heard of a proton, right?


And practically everybody (at least english-speaking internet geeks)
has heard of a black hole, right?


I wonder if anybody's done comparative numbers on the effective mass
vs. dimensions of the two. Like, are they conceptually equivalent,
or could, maybe, protons (and their sisters, neutrons) actually _BE_
teeny, tiny, infinitesimallyy smalll BLACK HOLES?????


A charged black hole has a maximum charge-to-mass ratio, and a spinning
black hole has a maximum angular momentum-to-mass ratio. If these are
exceeded, you don't have an event horizon, but instead have a "naked
singularity."

The charges and spins of all known elementary particles far exceed this
maximum value.

So, no, the proton can't be a black hole.

You must guess what the next question is...

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org
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Androcles
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
"Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie" <fff@example.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.11.22.18.25.27.106539@example.com...
Quote:
Hi. :-)

I'm about to embark on a websearch that could ultimately tell me some
of the numbers about protons and black holes.

Everybody's heard of a proton, right?

Nah... what is it?
What is it made of?


Quote:

And practically everybody (at least english-speaking internet geeks)
has heard of a black hole, right?

What's that, a kind of tooth fairy?

Quote:

I wonder if anybody's done comparative numbers on the effective mass
vs. dimensions of the two.

Oh, you want to know how many angels dance on the head of a pin!
3.1419265, of course.
In agreement with experience we further assume a round pin is
taller than an angle or angel, whatever.



Quote:
Like, are they conceptually equivalent,
or could, maybe, protons (and their sisters, neutrons) actually _BE_
teeny, tiny, infinitesimallyy smalll BLACK HOLES?????

Yeah, sure. Whatever floats your boat. Protons are holes in the fabric of
the spacetime continuum, a vacuum in a vacuum, swallowing everything near
them
until somone empties out the paper bag.
You must be right, I've agreed with you. Would you like some more candy,
little one? (???????????????????????????)... mustn't forget the extra
question marks.
Androcles.
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Mark Martin
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
brian a m stuckless wrote:
Quote:
$ "Micro" means "orders of magnitude smaller"-LiKE ..duh.
The MORE "orders of magnitude smaller" ..the MORE micro a Black Hole.
[ A GR-WORLD-point CANNOT exhibit SiZE or SHAPE, on GR-WORLD-lines. ]
[ There are NO Black Holes with mass in GR ..G_uv & T_uv UNrelated. ]
[ THEREfore, any GR Black Hole was, AGAiN, simply a GR-WORLD-point. ]


Tell you what. You go discuss this with Aut. I'm sure this sort of
thing is of the utmost criticality to her as well. Tell me how it all
comes out.

-Mark Martin
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Sam Wormley
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
Protons are made up of two up quarks and a down quark (uud)
http://particleadventure.org/particleadventure/frameless/chart_cutouts/particle_chart.jpg
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brian a m stuckless
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
$ "Micro" means "orders of magnitude smaller"-LiKE ..duh.
The MORE "orders of magnitude smaller" ..the MORE micro a Black Hole.
[ A GR-WORLD-point CANNOT exhibit SiZE or SHAPE, on GR-WORLD-lines. ]
[ There are NO Black Holes with mass in GR ..G_uv & T_uv UNrelated. ]
[ THEREfore, any GR Black Hole was, AGAiN, simply a GR-WORLD-point. ]
Quote:

Mark Martin wrote: > > Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie wrote:
Hi. :-)
I'm about to embark on a websearch that could ultimately tell
me some of the numbers about protons and black holes.

Everybody's heard of a proton, right?

And practically everybody (at least english-speaking internet
geeks) has heard of a black hole, right?

I wonder if anybody's done comparative numbers on the effective
mass vs. dimensions of the two. Like, are they conceptually
equivalent, or could, maybe, protons (and their sisters,
neutrons) actually _BE_ teeny, tiny, infinitesimallyy smalll
BLACK HOLES?????

Although a proton has no well defined radius, it is true
that the quarks occupy a region with a radius of at least
1.2 x 10^-15 m. A proton has a mass of 1.675 x 10^-27 kg, for
which the Swarzschild radius is 39 orders of magnitude smaller
than the proton radius I've given. So no, a proton isn't a
micro-black hole.

-Mark Martin

$ "Micro" means "orders of magnitude smaller"-LiKE ..duh.
The MORE "orders of magnitude smaller" ..the MORE micro a Black Hole.
[ A GR-WORLD-point CANNOT exhibit SiZE or SHAPE, on GR-WORLD-lines. ]
[ There are NO Black Holes with mass in GR ..G_uv & T_uv UNrelated. ]
[ THEREfore, any GR Black Hole was, AGAiN, simply a GR-WORLD-point. ]
brian a m stuckless
>><> >><> >><> >><> >><>
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FrediFizzx
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:uOLgf.566779$x96.147256@attbi_s72...
| Protons are made up of two up quarks and a down quark (uud)
|
http://particleadventure.org/particleadventure/frameless/chart_cutouts/particle_chart.jpg

Ya forgot the gluons. ;-) Protons are made up of three quarks plus
gluons which are very important.

FrediFizzx
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Sam Wormley
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
FrediFizzx wrote:
Quote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:uOLgf.566779$x96.147256@attbi_s72...
| Protons are made up of two up quarks and a down quark (uud)
|
http://particleadventure.org/particleadventure/frameless/chart_cutouts/particle_chart.jpg

Ya forgot the gluons. ;-) Protons are made up of three quarks plus
gluons which are very important.

FrediFizzx


Good catch!
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Old Man
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
"Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie" <fff@example.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.11.22.18.25.27.106539@example.com...
Quote:
Hi. :-)

I'm about to embark on a websearch that could ultimately tell me some
of the numbers about protons and black holes.

Everybody's heard of a proton, right?

And practically everybody (at least english-speaking internet geeks)
has heard of a black hole, right?

I wonder if anybody's done comparative numbers on the effective mass
vs. dimensions of the two. Like, are they conceptually equivalent,
or could, maybe, protons (and their sisters, neutrons) actually _BE_
teeny, tiny, infinitesimallyy smalll BLACK HOLES?????

Thanks,
Rich

The nucleon-nucleon force isn't that of gravitation.
The N-N force has repulsive, as well as attractive,
components. The size of the repulsive core is many
orders of magnitude larger than the Schwarzschild
radius for a black hole of the same mass. At typical
N-N distances in nuclei, the attractive component is
much stronger than that of gravitation.

The deuteron couldn't be held together by gravitation.

Hawking hypothesizes that a black hole with mass
less than ~ 10^(-8) kg (Planck mass) would decay
very rapidly (Planck time). Nucleon mass is many
orders of magnitude less than this.

[Old Man]
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Mark Martin
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie wrote:
Quote:
Hi. :-)

I'm about to embark on a websearch that could ultimately tell me some
of the numbers about protons and black holes.

Everybody's heard of a proton, right?

And practically everybody (at least english-speaking internet geeks)
has heard of a black hole, right?

I wonder if anybody's done comparative numbers on the effective mass
vs. dimensions of the two. Like, are they conceptually equivalent,
or could, maybe, protons (and their sisters, neutrons) actually _BE_
teeny, tiny, infinitesimallyy smalll BLACK HOLES?????

Although a proton has no well defined radius, it is true that the
quarks occupy a region with a radius of at least 1.2 x 10^-15 m. A
proton has a mass of 1.675 x 10^-27 kg, for which the Swarzschild
radius is 39 orders of magnitude smaller than the proton radius I've
given. So no, a proton isn't a micro-black hole.

-Mark Martin
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Rene Tschaggelar
Guest
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Are protons really quantum black holes? Reply with quote
Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie wrote:

Quote:
Hi. :-)

I'm about to embark on a websearch that could ultimately tell me some
of the numbers about protons and black holes.

Everybody's heard of a proton, right?

And practically everybody (at least english-speaking internet geeks)
has heard of a black hole, right?

I wonder if anybody's done comparative numbers on the effective mass
vs. dimensions of the two. Like, are they conceptually equivalent,
or could, maybe, protons (and their sisters, neutrons) actually _BE_
teeny, tiny, infinitesimallyy smalll BLACK HOLES?????

In addition to what has been said, there is a probability
of tiny black holes of whatever size. The smaller they
are the faster evaporate into normal matter though.
Hawkins didn't yet foretell how such evaporation is to
be thought to happen. The loss of binding energy can
be huge.

Rene
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