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Message |
Richard
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:35 am Post subject:
What bulb voltage? |
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It's funny, but I think it is the case that sometimes the voltage of the
bulb in the thing you bought does not match the battery voltage. I'm sure
I've noticed this in the past, often the bulb voltage is lower than battery
voltage.
Now, with a 3v batttery source, you would expect that you need a 3v bulb. Is
this true? Of course, desired brightness (wattage) is then a matter of bulb
amperage selection. TIA.
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John Popelish
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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Richard wrote:
| Quote: | It's funny, but I think it is the case that sometimes the voltage of the
bulb in the thing you bought does not match the battery voltage. I'm sure
I've noticed this in the past, often the bulb voltage is lower than battery
voltage.
Now, with a 3v batttery source, you would expect that you need a 3v bulb. Is
this true? Of course, desired brightness (wattage) is then a matter of bulb
amperage selection. TIA.
|
The battery label voltage spec is the unloaded voltage. The bulb is
chosen to match the battery actual voltage under that load. All
batteries have an effective internal resistance that uses up some of
the available voltage as current passes through the battery. This is
why using a bulb specified for a 2 AA cell flashlight on a 2 D cell
battery will have a short life, but be very bright. The D cells have
a much lower internal resistance, but the same no load voltage. |
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Richard
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:05 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:162dnT1CQOPjYhzenZ2dnUVZ_sGdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
| Quote: | Richard wrote:
It's funny, but I think it is the case that sometimes the voltage of the
bulb in the thing you bought does not match the battery voltage. I'm
sure
I've noticed this in the past, often the bulb voltage is lower than
battery
voltage.
Now, with a 3v batttery source, you would expect that you need a 3v
bulb. Is
this true? Of course, desired brightness (wattage) is then a matter of
bulb
amperage selection. TIA.
The battery label voltage spec is the unloaded voltage. The bulb is
chosen to match the battery actual voltage under that load. All
batteries have an effective internal resistance that uses up some of
the available voltage as current passes through the battery. This is
why using a bulb specified for a 2 AA cell flashlight on a 2 D cell
battery will have a short life, but be very bright. The D cells have
a much lower internal resistance, but the same no load voltage.
|
Thanks. Yea, when you look at a bulb out of some battery equipment, you
quite often fail to see the bulb voltage match the nominal battery voltage.
I think what this tends to mean is that in most cases the bulb voltage tends
to be lower than the nominal battery voltage.
And of course, the main consideration is light output, and I suppose not
drawing a current higher than the bulb is rated. Voltage of the bulb then
then does not seem always to be of much concern, certainly it seems to me
that you seldom find the lower voltage bulbs in battery equipment matching
the nominal battery voltage.
I suppose things are slightly different when one is dealing with non battery
source of power.
Point noted about different internal resistances of batteries.
One wonders whether the bulb or battery industry ever produced a table
having suggested voltage ratings of bulbs for the various batteries.
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John Popelish
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:33 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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Richard wrote:
(snip)
| Quote: | Point noted about different internal resistances of batteries.
One wonders whether the bulb or battery industry ever produced a table
having suggested voltage ratings of bulbs for the various batteries.
|
I think most small, low voltage lamps were designed with a particular
cell type and number in mind. As cell chemistries have improved, new
types have been added to work well with these lower internal
resistance cells. However I have not seen a list of cell and lamp
combination compatibility. But I'll bet it is available, somewhere.
Most data is in the this form:
http://www.mts.net/~william5/library/minilamp.htm
http://www.oldradios.co.nz/data/index7.htm
If you look at page 193 of this catalog:
http://stevenengineering.com/Tech_Support/PDFs/27MAIN.pdf
and look through the voltage and current ratings for the PR8 through
CM395X, (all lamps designed for two 1.5 volt cells, I think) you will
see a general trend that the lower the lamp current, the closer the
rated voltage is to 3 volts. I think this implies that they expect
lower internal cell resistance drop for lower lamp current. You could
probably go to the cell manufacturer's voltage versus current curves
and deduce what cell chemistry and size would produce these voltages
at these currents. All these lamp designs were initially requested by
some customer who needed a lamp for a specific application. |
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Richard
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:baCdnb3HBszajx_eRVn-uA@adelphia.com...
| Quote: | Richard wrote:
(snip)
Point noted about different internal resistances of batteries.
One wonders whether the bulb or battery industry ever produced a table
having suggested voltage ratings of bulbs for the various batteries.
I think most small, low voltage lamps were designed with a particular
cell type and number in mind. As cell chemistries have improved, new
types have been added to work well with these lower internal
resistance cells. However I have not seen a list of cell and lamp
combination compatibility. But I'll bet it is available, somewhere.
Most data is in the this form:
http://www.mts.net/~william5/library/minilamp.htm
http://www.oldradios.co.nz/data/index7.htm
If you look at page 193 of this catalog:
http://stevenengineering.com/Tech_Support/PDFs/27MAIN.pdf
and look through the voltage and current ratings for the PR8 through
CM395X, (all lamps designed for two 1.5 volt cells, I think) you will
see a general trend that the lower the lamp current, the closer the
rated voltage is to 3 volts. I think this implies that they expect
lower internal cell resistance drop for lower lamp current. You could
probably go to the cell manufacturer's voltage versus current curves
and deduce what cell chemistry and size would produce these voltages
at these currents. All these lamp designs were initially requested by
some customer who needed a lamp for a specific application.
|
You know, when one starts out with an interest in electronics first thing is
messing about with bulbs and battery's. I did not carry the interest on
professionally, however, I never realised there was so much to say about
selecting bulbs given a certain set of battery conditions.:c)
I bought this halloween pumpkin with a lamp in it. It's run off two Duracell
AA bateries. Actually I bought two, and both bulb have gone already. I think
they are underated, I mean they must be drawing an overated current. But
when they were lit the light output was about right.
Okay, this is what is says on the bulbs: 2.5v 0.2A. Okay so the problem is,
how do you go about getting a bulb that gives the same light output, but is
not going to be current overated? Rich. |
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John Popelish
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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Richard wrote:
(snip)
| Quote: | If when the overated lamp is burning I read 2.4v, 0.3A, then surely I'd need
a lamp with those specs?
|
That process would specify a lamp that would run at rated filament
temperature and that would consume the same power from the battery.
It would also produce less light than the bulb that was running well
above its ratings.
Electrical power to light power conversion efficiency goes up
dramatically as filament temperature rises. But life expectancy goes
down dramatically, also. |
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mike
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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John Popelish wrote:
| Quote: | Richard wrote:
(snip)
If when the overated lamp is burning I read 2.4v, 0.3A, then surely
I'd need
a lamp with those specs?
That process would specify a lamp that would run at rated filament
temperature and that would consume the same power from the battery. It
would also produce less light than the bulb that was running well above
its ratings.
Electrical power to light power conversion efficiency goes up
dramatically as filament temperature rises. But life expectancy goes
down dramatically, also.
|
I can't find the reference, but as I recall, there is a twelfth power
somewhere in that equation...dramatically indeed.
Design is a tradeoff.
Most people opt for more light output and shorter battery and bulb life
in their flahslights. We know that because that's where the market has
settled.
Unless you're an emergency worker, you probably don't use your
flashlight very much.
I remember my grandfather used to put a 9V bulb in his 12V hunting
light. When you've invested $2K in the hunt, short bulb life ain't an
issue.
mike
--
Wanted, Serial cable for Dell Axim X5 PDA.
Return address is VALID but some sites block emails
with links. Delete this sig when replying.
FS 500MHz Tek DSOscilloscope TDS540 Make Offer
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
MAKE THE OBVIOUS CHANGES TO THE LINK
ht<removethis>tp://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/ |
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John Popelish
Guest
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Richard
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3ueltmF10qkgfU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | I bought this halloween pumpkin with a lamp in it. It's run off two
Duracell
AA bateries. Actually I bought two, and both bulb have gone already. I
think
they are underated, I mean they must be drawing an overated current. But
when they were lit the light output was about right.
Okay, this is what is says on the bulbs: 2.5v 0.2A. Okay so the problem
is,
how do you go about getting a bulb that gives the same light output, but
is
not going to be current overated? Rich.
|
When I think about it, I think I would have to measure potential diference
across the bulb and current to get watts.
Then seek a bulb that was of the wattage measured.
And even then I don't suppose the task is an easy one. |
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John Popelish
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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Richard wrote:
| Quote: | Okay, this is what is says on the bulbs: 2.5v 0.2A. Okay so the problem is,
how do you go about getting a bulb that gives the same light output, but is
not going to be current overated? Rich.
|
I would try to find a similar sized lamp with both a slightly higher
voltage rating (to increase life) and also a slightly higher current
rating to produce the same light output power at a lower filament
temperature). |
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Richard
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3uemdrF10n4rvU1@individual.net...
| Quote: |
"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3ueltmF10qkgfU1@individual.net...
I bought this halloween pumpkin with a lamp in it. It's run off two
Duracell
AA bateries. Actually I bought two, and both bulb have gone already. I
think
they are underated, I mean they must be drawing an overated current. But
when they were lit the light output was about right.
Okay, this is what is says on the bulbs: 2.5v 0.2A. Okay so the problem
is,
how do you go about getting a bulb that gives the same light output, but
is
not going to be current overated? Rich.
When I think about it, I think I would have to measure potential diference
across the bulb and current to get watts.
Then seek a bulb that was of the wattage measured.
And even then I don't suppose the task is an easy one.
|
Actually isn't that the right answer.
If when the overated lamp is burning I read 2.4v, 0.3A, then surely I'd need
a lamp with those specs? |
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Michael A. Terrell
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:14 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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John Popelish wrote:
| Quote: |
Richard wrote:
Okay, this is what is says on the bulbs: 2.5v 0.2A. Okay so the problem is,
how do you go about getting a bulb that gives the same light output, but is
not going to be current overated? Rich.
I would try to find a similar sized lamp with both a slightly higher
voltage rating (to increase life) and also a slightly higher current
rating to produce the same light output power at a lower filament
temperature).
|
I used to put a diode in series with the bulb on cordless soldering
irons to make the bulb last longer. They went from a few hours to a few
years service when the diode was added.
--
?
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida |
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Richard
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3uemk7F1126h4U1@individual.net...
| Quote: |
"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3uemdrF10n4rvU1@individual.net...
"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3ueltmF10qkgfU1@individual.net...
I bought this halloween pumpkin with a lamp in it. It's run off two
Duracell
AA bateries. Actually I bought two, and both bulb have gone already. I
think
they are underated, I mean they must be drawing an overated current.
But
when they were lit the light output was about right.
Okay, this is what is says on the bulbs: 2.5v 0.2A. Okay so the
problem
is,
how do you go about getting a bulb that gives the same light output,
but
is
not going to be current overated? Rich.
When I think about it, I think I would have to measure potential
diference
across the bulb and current to get watts.
Then seek a bulb that was of the wattage measured.
And even then I don't suppose the task is an easy one.
Actually isn't that the right answer.
If when the overated lamp is burning I read 2.4v, 0.3A, then surely I'd
need
a lamp with those specs?
|
Actually, I think you would be reading a voltage higher than the rated bulb
voltage. If you did not, then you would not be getting the overrated
current.
Anyway, say the measured voltage was 2.7v, 0.3A. That's overvoltage of 0.2v
and overcurrent of 0.1A. I ought to be able to approximate the increase in
light output now given some formula.
"Light, Life, and Voltage
For any particular lamp, the light output and life depend upon the
voltage at which a lamp is operated. For instance, as approximations,
the light output varies as the 3.6 power of the voltage and the life varies
inversely as the 12th power of the voltage."
The normal light output would be 2.5v x 0.2A = 0.5W
The output when the bulb is being overated would be: 3.6 power of (2.7/2.5)
= 1.319 times 0.5W = 0.659W
My math could be wrong here.
Yes, but how would I proceed from here. I just know that I'm seeking a lamp
that's going to give out 0.7W
I've now got to match that with a battery voltage/current characteristic I
think. But how. This is the tricky bit.
All this is presuming that I'm seeking a bulb working in it's ratings, which
I might not if I were to feel efficiency is important. |
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Jasen Betts
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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On 2005-11-21, John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote:
| Quote: | The battery label voltage spec is the unloaded voltage. The bulb is
chosen to match the battery actual voltage under that load. All
batteries have an effective internal resistance that uses up some of
the available voltage as current passes through the battery. This is
why using a bulb specified for a 2 AA cell flashlight on a 2 D cell
battery will have a short life, but be very bright. The D cells have
a much lower internal resistance, but the same no load voltage.
|
Also the bulb is often rated at 2.4V, a 3V bulb will last longer.
--
Bye.
Jasen |
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Richard
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:35 am Post subject:
Re: What bulb voltage? |
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|
"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3ug94bF114v19U1@individual.net...
| Quote: |
"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3uemk7F1126h4U1@individual.net...
"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3uemdrF10n4rvU1@individual.net...
"Richard" <notty@emailo.com> wrote in message
news:3ueltmF10qkgfU1@individual.net...
I bought this halloween pumpkin with a lamp in it. It's run off two
Duracell
AA bateries. Actually I bought two, and both bulb have gone already.
I
think
they are underated, I mean they must be drawing an overated current.
But
when they were lit the light output was about right.
Okay, this is what is says on the bulbs: 2.5v 0.2A. Okay so the
problem
is,
how do you go about getting a bulb that gives the same light output,
but
is
not going to be current overated? Rich.
When I think about it, I think I would have to measure potential
diference
across the bulb and current to get watts.
Then seek a bulb that was of the wattage measured.
And even then I don't suppose the task is an easy one.
Actually isn't that the right answer.
If when the overated lamp is burning I read 2.4v, 0.3A, then surely I'd
need
a lamp with those specs?
Actually, I think you would be reading a voltage higher than the rated
bulb
voltage. If you did not, then you would not be getting the overrated
current.
Anyway, say the measured voltage was 2.7v, 0.3A. That's overvoltage of
0.2v
and overcurrent of 0.1A. I ought to be able to approximate the increase
in
light output now given some formula.
"Light, Life, and Voltage
For any particular lamp, the light output and life depend upon the
voltage at which a lamp is operated. For instance, as approximations,
the light output varies as the 3.6 power of the voltage and the life
varies
inversely as the 12th power of the voltage."
The normal light output would be 2.5v x 0.2A = 0.5W
|
Really, all I know is that the battery is supplying 0.5W. I've no idea what
the light output is, unless I could get to know that from a bulb spec.
| Quote: | The output when the bulb is being overated would be: 3.6 power of
(2.7/2.5)
= 1.319 times 0.5W = 0.659W
My math could be wrong here.
|
Well, probably wrong. The *light output* will be 1.319 times whatever it
was in the initial conditions of 2.5v
| Quote: |
Yes, but how would I proceed from here. I just know that I'm seeking a
lamp
that's going to give out 0.7W
I've now got to match that with a battery voltage/current characteristic I
think. But how. This is the tricky bit.
|
All I know is that if the bulb was working at 2.7v rather than the bulbs
design voltage of 2.5v, the light output was 1.319 times the rated bulb
light output, i.e, if 2.5v were across it.
I'm not sure how you would go about selecting a bulb that gave the same
light output of the over-rated bulb, yet the new bulb within it's maximum
ratings. Except by a bit of trial and error.
One ought to be able to calculate these things of course.
| Quote: | All this is presuming that I'm seeking a bulb working in it's ratings,
which
I might not if I were to feel efficiency is important. |
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