| Author |
Message |
Glenn Gundlach
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:40 am Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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You might find it amusing that in Hollywood, some video/audio houses
use 120 center tapped for the equipment. It seems all those Corcom
filters with 1000 pF caps from neutral and hot to ground can throw in
some significant imbalances into the neutral causing hum all over the
place. The 1 big transformer is easier than opening hundreds of units
to rework/replace those line filters. Of course the down side is
requiring dual breakers (common actuator) and twice the wiring.
GG
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Pooh Bear
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:40 am Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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John Larkin wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:33:07 +0000, Dan Mills
dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I don't think anywhere in Europe uses 110V for mains, it is all a nominal
230V (By international agreement (actually by eurofudge)).
The Corcom power inlet/fuze/emi filter things we buy used to be marked
100-120-220-240, with a little selector thing that switches
transformer taps. One day they started arriving labeled
100-120-230-240, even though nothing else had changed. Given the way
the transformer taps have to work, this isn't right.
I guess some bureaucrat in Brussels decided that 220=230.
|
They actually decided that 220V +/- 6% and 240V ( UK ) +/- 6% was covered by
230V +/- 10 % !
Some of the wealthier ( better infrastructure ) mainland European countries
have actually now really changed from 220V to 230V.
In the UK we're still 240V and the light loading of the supply caused by the
elimination of manufacturing industry often means that the real voltage at the
socket can regularly reach 250V ! 243V is more common most places though.
This means getting the right incandescent bulb ( Europe wide ) that doesn't
burn out or give a dim light quite fun. 220 -230 and 240 V versions are on
sale according to locality.
Oh - you ought to bear this in mind for your toroidal transformer. It
shouldn't saturate at 50Hz and 253V.
Graham |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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Tim Wescott wrote:
| Quote: | Dan Mills wrote:
R.Lewis wrote:
Are there any 'standards' - de facto or actual - that define what is meant
by a 110V (mains) supply in the UK and throughout Europe in the same way
that the pan-European household mains supply is defined?
I don't think anywhere in Europe uses 110V for mains, it is all a nominal
230V (By international agreement (actually by eurofudge)). The only place I
see 110V over here is on building sites where it is usually 55-0-55 with an
earthed centre tap.
Note that as neither side of this supply is earthed, you need to fuse both
lines if splitting a high current '110v' supply down for smaller loads.
Rather like what is required when running 230V (or 208V...) appliances in
the 'states.
There is a standard for the transformers used to produce this on building
sites but I cannot remember the number.
HTH.
Regards, Dan.
Why on earth (or at least why in Europe) would you want 110V on building
sites and no where else? So the highest voltage to ground is only 55V?
|
Yes
| Quote: |
Does this mean that European building contractors have all special
110V tools?
|
Yes
It beats being electrocuted.
Also less likelihood of pilfering tools to 'take home' ! :-)
The market is way big enough to support the standard.
Graham
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Pooh Bear
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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"R.Lewis" wrote:
| Quote: | Are there any 'standards' - de facto or actual - that define what is meant
by a 110V (mains) supply in the UK and throughout Europe in the same way
that the pan-European household mains supply is defined?
Thanks in anticipation.
|
There isn't any 110V ac in Europe out of a wall socket.
Construction sites use safety isolation transformers for power tools that are
110V centre tapped to ground ( 55-0-55 ) for elimination of shock hazard
reasons but that's quite specialist and not relevant to the nomal mains
supply.
Graham |
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Reg Edwards
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:14 pm Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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The logical reason for a 240 VAC standard was the price of annealed copper
wire at the time it was introduced.
The Americans, in a hurry, used whatever wire happened to be lying around.
The Europeans, more maturely, thought a little more about it. ;o) |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:36 pm Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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I read in sci.electronics.design that Tim Wescott
<tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote (in <110ift9cr61bu45@corp.supernews.
com>) about '110V ac', on Tue, 8 Feb 2005:
| Quote: | Why on earth (or at least why in Europe) would you want 110V on building
sites and no where else? So the highest voltage to ground is only 55V?
Does this mean that European building contractors have all special 110V
tools?
|
Not only building sites. Open-air markets as well.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <41hi019dqdsmsapubcf9lp3ic3qlkutaa6@
4ax.com>) about '110V ac', on Tue, 8 Feb 2005:
| Quote: | I guess some bureaucrat in Brussels decided that 220=230.
|
Not quite; they played games with the tolerances:
220 V: -6% + 10%, i.e. 207 to 242 V
230 V: +/- 10% (now: there was an earlier fudge) i.e. 207 V to 253 V
240 V: -10% +6%, i.e. 216 to 254 V
So most 220 V and 240 V supplies are within the 230 V tolerance range.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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|
I read in sci.electronics.design that Tim Wescott
<tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote (in <110in2k5bfnoke1@corp.supernews.
com>) about '110V ac', on Tue, 8 Feb 2005:
| Quote: | Except for the states (Oregon included) where you calculate the board-
feet of a log coming out of a state forest using area = 3/4 *
diameter^2, i.e. pi = 3. This is _not_ done because of religious
conviction, but to make the 'rithmatic easy.
|
It allows for wastage.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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Michael A. Terrell
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:37 pm Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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Reg Edwards wrote:
| Quote: |
The logical reason for a 240 VAC standard was the price of annealed copper
wire at the time it was introduced.
The Americans, in a hurry, used whatever wire happened to be lying around.
The Europeans, more maturely, thought a little more about it. ;o)
|
No, they hoped that most of you "Loyal British subjects" would
quickly electrocute yourself, and they wouldn't have to wire as many
homes. Also, if copper was a problem, we couldn't have used more of it
could we?
Different design requirements. Run the primary close to a house, or a
couple houses, put up a transformer and have short runs to a home work
very well here. It also makes it easy to add to the system, or change
the configuration for special applications.
Of course, you'll still believe that your slow (50 Hz) system is
better, no matter what evidence you see. :)
--
Beware of those who suffer from delusions of adequacy!
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida |
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Jim Thompson
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:43 pm Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
|
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On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:37:20 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
| Quote: |
Different design requirements. Run the primary close to a house, or a
couple houses, put up a transformer and have short runs to a home work
very well here. It also makes it easy to add to the system, or change
the configuration for special applications.
[snip] |
The typical arrangement in my neighborhood is one transformer per two
houses, and everything is underground so as to not sully the view.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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Michael A. Terrell
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:19 am Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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Jim Thompson wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:37:20 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
Different design requirements. Run the primary close to a house, or a
couple houses, put up a transformer and have short runs to a home work
very well here. It also makes it easy to add to the system, or change
the configuration for special applications.
[snip]
The typical arrangement in my neighborhood is one transformer per two
houses, and everything is underground so as to not sully the view.
...Jim Thompson
|
Local code requires the meter and main disconnect to be away from the
house in case of an emergency, but a lot of homes are underground to a
short pole with the meter and switch, then underground to the house. My
subdivision is overdue a complete rebuild. It was laid out in 1964, all
overhead along the street, and either overhead or underground to the
homes. The worst part is is was built for 60 amp 220 volt service and
most homes have 150 or 200 amp service. Friday evening about 4:45 PM a
fuse in a 7200 volt line blows when everyone gets home from work and
fires up the central air, electric stove and all their other toys.
--
Beware of those who suffer from delusions of adequacy!
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
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John Larkin wrote:
| Quote: | Here we have residential 120-0-120 power. In my old house, a 100+
year-old Victorian, we had an intermittent open neutral (that's the 0v
line in the middle) out on the pole outside. That caused interesting
effects, as about half the 120-volt devices in the house were then
operating in series with the other half, off 240 volts.
|
That sounds entertaining !
How common is 'power off the pole' in the US ?
We only see it here in the UK in remote rural areas.
Incidentally, your house must be around the same age as mine - 113 yrs old here.
Whereabouts is that ?
Graham |
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John Larkin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
|
|
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:58:01 +0000, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
John Larkin wrote:
Here we have residential 120-0-120 power. In my old house, a 100+
year-old Victorian, we had an intermittent open neutral (that's the 0v
line in the middle) out on the pole outside. That caused interesting
effects, as about half the 120-volt devices in the house were then
operating in series with the other half, off 240 volts.
That sounds entertaining !
How common is 'power off the pole' in the US ?
We only see it here in the UK in remote rural areas.
Incidentally, your house must be around the same age as mine - 113 yrs old here.
Whereabouts is that ?
|
Holly Park neighborhood of San Francisco. It was built in 1892 (we
think), mostly redwood, and originally had gas lighting, then horrible
knob-and-tube wiring, then conduit (that was mandatory for a time,
still is for commercial buildings), finally Romex. I cleaned it up a
lot.
We now live in a new house, built in 1992. It's amazing: everything
works, and there's 15 amps at every outlet. All I had to do was put in
some dimmers. The street wiring is underground, but much of the city
still has overhead wiring with the occasional "pole pig" (stepdown
transformer) up on the poles, too. They're gradually undergrounding
everything, but it's very expensive and may take decades to complete.
They are just now tearing up my street to replace all the old gas
lines with high-pressure (75 psi) plastic tubes, which they can push
inside of the old rusty low-pressure pipes.
Here in California, houses are almost always made of wood over a
concrete foundation. That combination handles earthquakes very well.
Where are you? What's the house made of? I've seen lots of stone in
the UK. Quaint, as long as the ground doesn't shake.
It's interesting to compare wiring in the US to the UK. We have
one-way runs of 120 volts, wire-nut junctions, push-in-wiring outlets,
plastic junction boxes, small plugs, GFDs only in wet areas. You have
(I think) ring-wired 240, screw terminal blocks, master GFDs, huge
plugs with fuses inside.
John |
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Ken Taylor
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:21 am Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
|
|
"John Larkin" <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote in
message news:eplo01dhdo1oepvdpf1qk9tfqcoa9p2dp5@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:58:01 +0000, Pooh Bear
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Here we have residential 120-0-120 power. In my old house, a 100+
year-old Victorian, we had an intermittent open neutral (that's the 0v
line in the middle) out on the pole outside. That caused interesting
effects, as about half the 120-volt devices in the house were then
operating in series with the other half, off 240 volts.
That sounds entertaining !
How common is 'power off the pole' in the US ?
We only see it here in the UK in remote rural areas.
Incidentally, your house must be around the same age as mine - 113 yrs
old here.
Whereabouts is that ?
Holly Park neighborhood of San Francisco. It was built in 1892 (we
think), mostly redwood, and originally had gas lighting, then horrible
knob-and-tube wiring, then conduit (that was mandatory for a time,
still is for commercial buildings), finally Romex. I cleaned it up a
lot.
We now live in a new house, built in 1992. It's amazing: everything
works, and there's 15 amps at every outlet. All I had to do was put in
some dimmers. The street wiring is underground, but much of the city
still has overhead wiring with the occasional "pole pig" (stepdown
transformer) up on the poles, too. They're gradually undergrounding
everything, but it's very expensive and may take decades to complete.
They are just now tearing up my street to replace all the old gas
lines with high-pressure (75 psi) plastic tubes, which they can push
inside of the old rusty low-pressure pipes.
Here in California, houses are almost always made of wood over a
concrete foundation. That combination handles earthquakes very well.
Where are you? What's the house made of? I've seen lots of stone in
the UK. Quaint, as long as the ground doesn't shake.
It's interesting to compare wiring in the US to the UK. We have
one-way runs of 120 volts, wire-nut junctions, push-in-wiring outlets,
plastic junction boxes, small plugs, GFDs only in wet areas. You have
(I think) ring-wired 240, screw terminal blocks, master GFDs, huge
plugs with fuses inside.
John
I've just bought and moved into a 100 (thereabouts) year old house in |
Auckland, made of mainly kauri (local hardwood no longer readily
obtainable). Fortunate that - the crappy 'remedial' works done on drainage
in this place over the years would have destroyed wood of lesser quality!
Anyway I've just about finished getting the old wiring out - mainly that
conduit-run insulated cabling which has insulation which falls apart long
before now, but also later wiring with PVC-like qualities (except for the
similar rodent-tasty, crumbly nature of it). Here it's all 240V off the pole
(like yours, being undergrounded, but they haven't even started in this
older area yet) or 3-phase 415V if required. No fuses in plugs but GFD's are
now mandatory in new installations at the fusebox - I've got several in mine
so I won't lose everything at once.
Ken |
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John Larkin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:06 am Post subject:
Re: 110V ac |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:21:03 +1300, "Ken Taylor" <ken@home.nz> wrote:
| Quote: | "John Larkin" <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote in
message news:eplo01dhdo1oepvdpf1qk9tfqcoa9p2dp5@4ax.com...
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:58:01 +0000, Pooh Bear
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Here we have residential 120-0-120 power. In my old house, a 100+
year-old Victorian, we had an intermittent open neutral (that's the 0v
line in the middle) out on the pole outside. That caused interesting
effects, as about half the 120-volt devices in the house were then
operating in series with the other half, off 240 volts.
That sounds entertaining !
How common is 'power off the pole' in the US ?
We only see it here in the UK in remote rural areas.
Incidentally, your house must be around the same age as mine - 113 yrs
old here.
Whereabouts is that ?
Holly Park neighborhood of San Francisco. It was built in 1892 (we
think), mostly redwood, and originally had gas lighting, then horrible
knob-and-tube wiring, then conduit (that was mandatory for a time,
still is for commercial buildings), finally Romex. I cleaned it up a
lot.
We now live in a new house, built in 1992. It's amazing: everything
works, and there's 15 amps at every outlet. All I had to do was put in
some dimmers. The street wiring is underground, but much of the city
still has overhead wiring with the occasional "pole pig" (stepdown
transformer) up on the poles, too. They're gradually undergrounding
everything, but it's very expensive and may take decades to complete.
They are just now tearing up my street to replace all the old gas
lines with high-pressure (75 psi) plastic tubes, which they can push
inside of the old rusty low-pressure pipes.
Here in California, houses are almost always made of wood over a
concrete foundation. That combination handles earthquakes very well.
Where are you? What's the house made of? I've seen lots of stone in
the UK. Quaint, as long as the ground doesn't shake.
It's interesting to compare wiring in the US to the UK. We have
one-way runs of 120 volts, wire-nut junctions, push-in-wiring outlets,
plastic junction boxes, small plugs, GFDs only in wet areas. You have
(I think) ring-wired 240, screw terminal blocks, master GFDs, huge
plugs with fuses inside.
John
I've just bought and moved into a 100 (thereabouts) year old house in
Auckland, made of mainly kauri (local hardwood no longer readily
obtainable). Fortunate that - the crappy 'remedial' works done on drainage
in this place over the years would have destroyed wood of lesser quality!
Anyway I've just about finished getting the old wiring out - mainly that
conduit-run insulated cabling which has insulation which falls apart long
before now, but also later wiring with PVC-like qualities (except for the
similar rodent-tasty, crumbly nature of it). Here it's all 240V off the pole
(like yours, being undergrounded, but they haven't even started in this
older area yet) or 3-phase 415V if required. No fuses in plugs but GFD's are
now mandatory in new installations at the fusebox - I've got several in mine
so I won't lose everything at once.
|
Do fusebox GFD's false-trip a lot? We have them in outlets in the
kitchen, bathrooms, and garage, anywhere potentially wet, and certain
brush-motor-type appliances tend to trip them; slows me down grinding
coffee sometimes. Sometimes they just trip, probably from transients
somewhere.
I measured 5 megs leakage on my garbage disposal, and that was enough
to trip a GFD. I also had a sump pump (the lower level of my house is
below the street, so we have to pump stuff up from the lower bathroom)
that tripped its GFD from a tiny bit of leakage.
John |
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