| Author |
Message |
James Knott
Guest
|
 Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
John wrote:
| Quote: | The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.
|
It's more than fears. There have been several documented instances of
interference to radio services. The potenial for interference to the data
communications, from radio transmitters also exists.
|
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|
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Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken
Smith) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
[...]
(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
pole, then connection to phone lines.
(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
company polls your modem.
I'll add:
(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.
I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
has done it for power meters.
--
|
I'm sure you can find other methods as well. This part of the
industry hasn't yet standardized. Everything still is in 'beta' ;-)
In my neighborhood the "meter reader" plugs a hand-held device into
the meter and records the information, my bill is based on three
rates: off-peak, on-peak and peak demand.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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John O
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
| Quote: | The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.
It's more than fears. There have been several documented instances of
interference to radio services. The potenial for interference to the data
communications, from radio transmitters also exists.
|
They're a little nervous about losing some (largely unused) amateur bands,
and the powerline thing certainly has the potential to cause some trouble,
too. So they are a little sensitive right now, can't blame them for that.
But, there are a helluva lot of documented cases of amateur radio
transmissions interfering with just about everything else that's electronic,
and IMO the high level of hand-wringing from the ARRL on this subject is a
little ironic. :-) (You largely said the same thing I think, James.)
-John O
|
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:48 pm Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:59:32 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken
Smith) wrote:
In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
[...]
(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
pole, then connection to phone lines.
(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
company polls your modem.
I'll add:
(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.
I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
has done it for power meters.
--
I'm sure you can find other methods as well. This part of the
industry hasn't yet standardized. Everything still is in 'beta' ;-)
In my neighborhood the "meter reader" plugs a hand-held device into
the meter and records the information, my bill is based on three
rates: off-peak, on-peak and peak demand.
...Jim Thompson
|
http://www.gtiservices.org/amra/amra1/
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:48:21 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:59:32 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken
Smith) wrote:
In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
[...]
(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
pole, then connection to phone lines.
(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
company polls your modem.
I'll add:
(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.
I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
has done it for power meters.
--
I'm sure you can find other methods as well. This part of the
industry hasn't yet standardized. Everything still is in 'beta' ;-)
In my neighborhood the "meter reader" plugs a hand-held device into
the meter and records the information, my bill is based on three
rates: off-peak, on-peak and peak demand.
...Jim Thompson
http://www.gtiservices.org/amra/amra1/
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
|
I did some chip design work for a "modem-per-house" company that was
in (IIRC) Toronto. But they lost their funding before they got it
working.
BTW, if you haven't heard the news...
"PALO ALTO, Calif., Feb 09, 2005 (United Press International via
COMTEX) -- The chairman and chief executive of Hewlett-Packard Co. has
resigned suddenly in a dispute with the California company's board."
Good riddance, Carly ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
|
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Rob Gaddi
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
Jim Thompson wrote:
| Quote: |
BTW, if you haven't heard the news...
"PALO ALTO, Calif., Feb 09, 2005 (United Press International via
COMTEX) -- The chairman and chief executive of Hewlett-Packard Co. has
resigned suddenly in a dispute with the California company's board."
Good riddance, Carly ;-)
...Jim Thompson
|
Ding dong, the wicked witch is dead. Now to see if I can't go
defibrillate my poor HP shares. |
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|
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:12:43 -0600, the renowned Rob Gaddi
<rgaddi@bcm.YUMMYSPAMtmc.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Thompson wrote:
BTW, if you haven't heard the news...
"PALO ALTO, Calif., Feb 09, 2005 (United Press International via
COMTEX) -- The chairman and chief executive of Hewlett-Packard Co. has
resigned suddenly in a dispute with the California company's board."
Good riddance, Carly ;-)
...Jim Thompson
Ding dong, the wicked witch is dead. Now to see if I can't go
defibrillate my poor HP shares.
|
Don't count on it happening really fast:
"The uptick in Hewlett-Packard is purely because of market psychology
and will pass as the company still has the same mess in its hand and
doesn't have anyone to run the ship long term," said Cummins
Catherwood, managing director, Walnut Asset Management.
But given my experience with such experts, maybe the above is a 'buy'
signal.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:57 am Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
In misc.industry.utilities.electric John <john_t@no.spam> wrote:
| Don Lancaster wrote:
|
|> I guess I was involved in the earliest of powerline carrier
|> communications. Back in 1961 at Femco.
|>
|> It did not work then and it will not work now.
|>
|> Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
|> that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.
|
| Powerline communications doesn't work in the 21st century? Really? Gosh
| somebody forgot to tell these people:
| http://www.powerlinecommunications.net/whatispowerline.htm
|
| PPL has had running broadband Internet over powerline services in select
| markets for a few years now. Some other utilties have similar programs.
| http://www.thestreet.com/_tsclsii/tech/themarker/10045487.html
|
| Utilities not only have another revenue stream and an efficient Internet
| distribution method, but also gain the benefit of a communications channel
| to/from their meters.
|
| The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
| communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.
Hams continue to speak out well after BPL is operating. The interference
is documented. Further, BPL is, itself, ruined by nearby transmitters.
Although any wire infrastructure can carry data, it does have limits based
on many factors. And power lines are not designed for high data rates.
They are unshielded, and as a result are susceptible to interference, and
radiate their own interference. Phone lines also have documented problems,
but at least they are twisted. The only part of the power lines that are
twisted are the triplex overhead drops.
BPL is going to be very limited in top speed. As bandwidth goes up, so goes
the sensitivity to noise and interference. Things like electronic ballasts
operating between 20 kHz and 50 kHz are going to be another interference
source.
The power companies are just playing a "me, too" game on this. They wanted
in on the "riches" the internet was bringing to telephone and cable companies.
But as the bandwidth demands of the market top 100 mbps, power companies are
going to be playing the tune "where'd they go?". It's a bad investment for
the power companies. Right now, I wouldn't put any money in their stock.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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|
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Joerg
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:58 am Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
Hello Peter,
| Quote: | With very low channel width and appropriate signalling you do not need
to bridge transformers. However if complex tariffs are envisaged
there may be a need for transmitting up to 24 readings a day per meter
and this may be beyond such systems.
|
In Germany they send around control signals to turn on "night storage
heaters". Basically a huge block of bricks that is heated up off-peak
and then a fan kicks out the stored heat during the day. Usually there
are several such units per residence. The control of these via the power
grid is very reliable. I believe they can selectively turn on groups of
them but there were some restrictions as to which areas could receive
the control signals to within the prescribed specs.
Anyone who wants to check that out and can read German could search
Google for the terms "Nachtspeicherheizung" and "Rundsteuerung".
Meter reading could be done staggered. That way the amount of data can
be spread out over each month. Pretty much in the same way that the
meter reader travels their monthly route.
But there is one obstacle to all this. I heard from someone in the power
biz that occasionally it was said "so-and-so does not like these
research projects if they lead to the elimination of jobs".
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com |
|
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|
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James Knott
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:34 am Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
Joerg wrote:
| Quote: | In Germany they send around control signals to turn on "night storage
heaters". Basically a huge block of bricks that is heated up off-peak
and then a fan kicks out the stored heat during the day.
|
When I was a kid, we had a flat rate electric water heater. It could be
turned off by the power company, during periods of high demand, using a
power line carrier system. The power companies also used the power lines
to carry low speed data. However, neither of those systems required
anywhere near the bandwidth of BPL, nor were they likely to cause
interference. |
|
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|
|
Joerg
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:50 am Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
Hello James,
| Quote: | When I was a kid, we had a flat rate electric water heater. It could be
turned off by the power company, during periods of high demand, using a
power line carrier system. The power companies also used the power lines
to carry low speed data. However, neither of those systems required
anywhere near the bandwidth of BPL, nor were they likely to cause
interference.
|
We did have interference but very little. When I listened to BBC on long
wave (200kHz, not used in the US) you could hear a faint weeeezzzzzt
when these PLC signals came along. It had its upside though, this was
usually the sign to call it a day.
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:34:38 -0500, James Knott
<james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Joerg wrote:
In Germany they send around control signals to turn on "night storage
heaters". Basically a huge block of bricks that is heated up off-peak
and then a fan kicks out the stored heat during the day.
When I was a kid, we had a flat rate electric water heater. It could be
turned off by the power company, during periods of high demand, using a
power line carrier system. The power companies also used the power lines
to carry low speed data. However, neither of those systems required
anywhere near the bandwidth of BPL, nor were they likely to cause
interference.
|
Note however that these systems use signalling frequencies of 200 Hz
to 1500Hz and are 'one way'. Bandwidth and other constraints limited
capacity originally to 12 to 25 on / off channels. Injection may be
at zone substations (signal passes through one transformer) or at grid
exit points (signal passes through two transformers). These would be
electronic system nowadays, older ones used three phase alternators to
generate the signal ane electromechanical receivers (eg reed relay to
respond to signal and motor driven cam for selection). |
|
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|
|
Peter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken
Smith) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
[...]
(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
pole, then connection to phone lines.
(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
company polls your modem.
I'll add:
(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.
I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
has done it for power meters.
It seems interesting that none of these technologies has made |
significant inroads into meter reading for smaller customers. About
the only development that has been widely adopted is a hand held
computer to replace the meter reading book.
There has been talk of these systems going hand in hand with demand
side management eg real time pricing, but efforts to reduce the cost
of these systems to a lever where they are worth adopting seem so far
to be without success.
The most successful niche seems to be a low bandwidth system for rural
areas (where meter reading costs are very high) which does not require
transformer bridging ( http://www.turtletech.com ). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:49 am Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
Don Lancaster wrote:
(snip)
| Quote: | Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.
--
Many thanks,
|
You should try a *new* Diablo. Much better. ;-) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:08 am Post subject:
Re: Powerline modem |
|
|
phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
| Quote: | In misc.industry.utilities.electric John <john_t@no.spam> wrote:
| Don Lancaster wrote:
|
|> I guess I was involved in the earliest of powerline carrier
|> communications. Back in 1961 at Femco.
|
|> It did not work then and it will not work now.
|
|> Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
|> that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.
|
| Powerline communications doesn't work in the 21st century? Really? Gosh
| somebody forgot to tell these people:
| http://www.powerlinecommunications.net/whatispowerline.htm
|
| PPL has had running broadband Internet over powerline services in select
| markets for a few years now. Some other utilties have similar programs.
| http://www.thestreet.com/_tsclsii/tech/themarker/10045487.html
|
| Utilities not only have another revenue stream and an efficient Internet
| distribution method, but also gain the benefit of a communications channel
| to/from their meters.
|
| The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
| communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.
Hams continue to speak out well after BPL is operating. The interference
is documented. Further, BPL is, itself, ruined by nearby transmitters.
Although any wire infrastructure can carry data, it does have limits based
on many factors. And power lines are not designed for high data rates.
They are unshielded, and as a result are susceptible to interference, and
radiate their own interference. Phone lines also have documented problems,
but at least they are twisted. The only part of the power lines that are
twisted are the triplex overhead drops.
BPL is going to be very limited in top speed. As bandwidth goes up, so goes
the sensitivity to noise and interference. Things like electronic ballasts
operating between 20 kHz and 50 kHz are going to be another interference
source.
The power companies are just playing a "me, too" game on this. They wanted
in on the "riches" the internet was bringing to telephone and cable companies.
But as the bandwidth demands of the market top 100 mbps, power companies are
going to be playing the tune "where'd they go?".
|
Only 100 Mbps? That's a hell of a lot more then dial-up, which is the only hope
of any Internet access at all (save satellite) in much of the USA where cable is
not available and DSL lines are not available either due to DSL's numerous
limitations. It's a lot more then DSL capabilities and cable broadband offerings
too.
You forget that the power utilities aren't setting out to do this to become
Internet companies, they were looking for efficient ways to communicate with their
meters (and utility controlled thermostats). Being able to offer and sell
Internet broadband access is a nice side effect of having the infrastructure.
| Quote: | It's a bad investment for
the power companies. Right now, I wouldn't put any money in their stock.
|
PPL has done quite nicely the last few years and is a fairly conservatively run
company. |
|
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