| Author |
Message |
Robert Oschler
Guest
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 Posted:
Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:20 am Post subject:
Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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Hello all,
I have a video transmitter and camera that is just the right size for
putting on a mobile robot. The problem is that it takes power from a
typical wall wart power supply. I want to "cut the cord" and go mobile, and
to do that I need battery based power that will output power in the
electrical format that the transmitter requires, and out through to
compatible jack. The wall wart power supply specs are:
Input: 120V, 60 Hz, 18W
Output: 12VDC, 400mA max
The tip of the plug is positive (+)
Where would I look (URL's, web sites, vendors, etc.) to find a battery based
solution that is as close to my desired goal as possible (minimum amount of
work to complete the project)?
Thanks,
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum
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Robert Baer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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|
Robert Oschler wrote:
| Quote: |
Hello all,
I have a video transmitter and camera that is just the right size for
putting on a mobile robot. The problem is that it takes power from a
typical wall wart power supply. I want to "cut the cord" and go mobile, and
to do that I need battery based power that will output power in the
electrical format that the transmitter requires, and out through to
compatible jack. The wall wart power supply specs are:
Input: 120V, 60 Hz, 18W
Output: 12VDC, 400mA max
The tip of the plug is positive (+)
Where would I look (URL's, web sites, vendors, etc.) to find a battery based
solution that is as close to my desired goal as possible (minimum amount of
work to complete the project)?
Thanks,
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum
|
*ALL* un-regulated wall wart supplies output a voltage that is greater
than the "spec" when at full rated load.
You could safely use a 12V sealed lead acid battery as the power
source. The actual drain of the transmitter probably varies, and may be
in the 100mA region.
The wall wart is *not* safe to use as a charger for that battery! |
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Robert Oschler
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42032905.C382C017@earthlink.net...
| Quote: |
*ALL* un-regulated wall wart supplies output a voltage that is greater
than the "spec" when at full rated load.
You could safely use a 12V sealed lead acid battery as the power
source. The actual drain of the transmitter probably varies, and may be
in the 100mA region.
The wall wart is *not* safe to use as a charger for that battery!
|
Robert,
Thanks. I'll try to find one that isn't so heavy. Most of the lead acid
batteries I looked for were about 4 pounds, which is pretty heavy.
Just as a curiousity, even though it's manganese dioxide and not lead, would
two batteries like these wired in series work?:
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/a23.pdf
They only weigh 7.5 grams a piece, but they drop off from 12V pretty quick.
Also, is there any kind of electronics that I need to add between the
battery output and the jack to smooth or regulate the output?
Thanks,
Robert Oschler
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Earl Bollinger
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
"Robert Oschler" <no-mail-please@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Bbmdnc4lupcd1p7fRVn-tQ@adelphia.com...
| Quote: |
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42032905.C382C017@earthlink.net...
*ALL* un-regulated wall wart supplies output a voltage that is greater
than the "spec" when at full rated load.
You could safely use a 12V sealed lead acid battery as the power
source. The actual drain of the transmitter probably varies, and may be
in the 100mA region.
The wall wart is *not* safe to use as a charger for that battery!
Robert,
Thanks. I'll try to find one that isn't so heavy. Most of the lead acid
batteries I looked for were about 4 pounds, which is pretty heavy.
Just as a curiousity, even though it's manganese dioxide and not lead,
would
two batteries like these wired in series work?:
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/a23.pdf
They only weigh 7.5 grams a piece, but they drop off from 12V pretty
quick.
Also, is there any kind of electronics that I need to add between the
battery output and the jack to smooth or regulate the output?
Thanks,
Robert Oschler
|
Those batteries are only 40mah, your camera would suck them down in a minute
or two.
I would suggest AA or maybe AAA NMH (nickle metal hydride) batteries in a
ten cell series arrangement (which gives you 12v).
The NMH batteries have a higher milliamp hour rating than the small 1300mah
lead acid gel cells nowadays. |
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Robert Oschler
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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"Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:taCdndnz2raV-57fRVn-1Q@comcast.com...
| Quote: |
Those batteries are only 40mah, your camera would suck them down in a
minute
or two.
I would suggest AA or maybe AAA NMH (nickle metal hydride) batteries in a
ten cell series arrangement (which gives you 12v).
The NMH batteries have a higher milliamp hour rating than the small
1300mah
lead acid gel cells nowadays.
Earl, |
Ok, thanks. Do I need to put a smoothing or regulating circuit between the
batteries output and the output jack?
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum |
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Mitch Berkson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:24 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
Robert Oschler wrote:
| Quote: | Where would I look (URL's, web sites, vendors, etc.) to find a
battery based solution that is as close to my desired goal as
possible (minimum amount of work to complete the project)?
|
The other replies you have received assume that the wall wart is providing a
voltage which is regulated further in your device. This may not necessarily
be the case and, if it is not, you may damage your camera.
Mitch |
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Silviu Trofimov
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:51 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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|
If you need the assembly small, unless you want it operate for very
short period of time, the only way to go is with a high-efficient
type. There is an article on Matt Blaze's page (about chargers, but it
also covers batteries):
http://www.crypto.com/chargers/
(high efficient would be NiMH for rechargables, these are the
cost-effective ones, not because they are cheap - the good quality
ones are not - but because they can be reused). You will need 8-9
batteries serialized for this (the voltage of NiMH is slightly less
than 1.5V) and if the TX is not of high quality, the transmission
frequency may drift through operation (I have this problem with some
of the mini-TX cameras that were sold in Toronto over the X-mas - they
wer only $40 - TX/RX and worked on 9V batteries but could not
stabilize the transmission in time).
Regards,
Silviu Trofimov |
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SteveB
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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No smoothing or regulation required, but you need a fuse close to the
battery ideally, as 12v of fully charged NiMHs won't appreciate it if your
cable shorts. One other problem with using 10 cells in series is that when
one cell runs down flat before the others, your equipment may well carry on
working OK, but that cell will be damaged by reversed current flow. The
simple answer is to top-up charge before there's any chance of cells going
flat, and to measure the voltage of individual cells and throw out any that
are consistently below-par. Another way, the method that digital cameras
use, is to automatically shut down if the battery voltage falls below a
certain level, but this gets more difficult when you have a lot of cells in
series. Approx 11v shut off would be about right. Lead acid may be easier.
"Robert Oschler" <no-mail-please@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2N-dnWV-APDJPZ7fRVn-sw@adelphia.com...
| Quote: |
"Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:taCdndnz2raV-57fRVn-1Q@comcast.com...
Those batteries are only 40mah, your camera would suck them down in a
minute
or two.
I would suggest AA or maybe AAA NMH (nickle metal hydride) batteries in a
ten cell series arrangement (which gives you 12v).
The NMH batteries have a higher milliamp hour rating than the small
1300mah
lead acid gel cells nowadays.
Earl,
Ok, thanks. Do I need to put a smoothing or regulating circuit between
the
batteries output and the output jack?
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum
|
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|
| Back to top |
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SteveB
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
Just to add, your equipment may well have the shut-off circuitry built in to
it anyway.
"SteveB" <sbrads@nildramDOTcoDOTuk> wrote in message
news:o6ednQEXhfQfHpnfRVn-3Q@pipex.net...
| Quote: | No smoothing or regulation required, but you need a fuse close to the
battery ideally, as 12v of fully charged NiMHs won't appreciate it if your
cable shorts. One other problem with using 10 cells in series is that
when one cell runs down flat before the others, your equipment may well
carry on working OK, but that cell will be damaged by reversed current
flow. The simple answer is to top-up charge before there's any chance of
cells going flat, and to measure the voltage of individual cells and throw
out any that are consistently below-par. Another way, the method that
digital cameras use, is to automatically shut down if the battery voltage
falls below a certain level, but this gets more difficult when you have a
lot of cells in series. Approx 11v shut off would be about right. Lead
acid may be easier.
|
|
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| Back to top |
|
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Robert Baer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
Robert Oschler wrote:
| Quote: |
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42032905.C382C017@earthlink.net...
*ALL* un-regulated wall wart supplies output a voltage that is greater
than the "spec" when at full rated load.
You could safely use a 12V sealed lead acid battery as the power
source. The actual drain of the transmitter probably varies, and may be
in the 100mA region.
The wall wart is *not* safe to use as a charger for that battery!
Robert,
Thanks. I'll try to find one that isn't so heavy. Most of the lead acid
batteries I looked for were about 4 pounds, which is pretty heavy.
Just as a curiousity, even though it's manganese dioxide and not lead, would
two batteries like these wired in series work?:
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/a23.pdf
They only weigh 7.5 grams a piece, but they drop off from 12V pretty quick.
Also, is there any kind of electronics that I need to add between the
battery output and the jack to smooth or regulate the output?
Thanks,
Robert Oschler
|
There are many small 12V sealed lead-acid batteries: PowerSonic
PS-1208 3.78L x 0.98W x 2.42H @0.8lb is their smallest (0.8AH at 20 hr
rate); Panasonic LCR121R3PU 3.82L x 1.87W x 1.97H @1.30lb is their
smallest (1.3AH at 20 hr rate); CSB GH1313 3.82L x 0.98W x 2.05H @1.28lb
is their smallest (1.3AH at 20 hr rate).
Sizes and capacities increase from there.
**
Concerning those Energizer cells, i see that the 20K load spec (40K
for 2 in series) would give (from their curve) a real service of 60-70
hours *IF* your unit had such a low drain.
And i do not think that your unit draws 500microamps!
Here is the spec sheet on the smallest of those i mentioned:
http://www.power-sonic.com/ps-1208.pdf
From that data sheet, the 5 hour rate (130mA to end at 10.2V) is about
what i would guess as to the actual characteristics you would see if
used with what you have (based on crude guess as to actual drain of that
equipment).
You should measure the actual current drain under typical operating
conditions, and work from there.
Lithium non-rechargeable cells give higher power density, but you
*pay* for that.
Some comparisons that may be of use, for D-cell size:
Eveready Dry cell 8000mAH, Eveready Alkaline 18000mAH, Sanyo NiCd
4400mAH, Energizer NiMH 2200mAH, Tadiran Lithium (3.6V) 16500mAH,
Tadrian Lithium high capacity (3.6V) 19000mAH.
That clearly shows that non-rechargeable cells perform better in this
class range, and the vaunted "lithium advantage" is bad on the wallet -
use alkalines instead, unless space/weight is a premium.
Where a lead-acid cell lies, it is hard to tell. Using P.216 of the
Radio Shack Enercell Battery Guidebook (62-1304 2nd Ed circa 1990), it
would seem that a D-cell size (2.0V) would yield about 2000mAH.
Hope this is of some help. |
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| Back to top |
|
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Robert Baer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
SteveB wrote:
| Quote: |
No smoothing or regulation required, but you need a fuse close to the
battery ideally, as 12v of fully charged NiMHs won't appreciate it if your
cable shorts. One other problem with using 10 cells in series is that when
one cell runs down flat before the others, your equipment may well carry on
working OK, but that cell will be damaged by reversed current flow. The
simple answer is to top-up charge before there's any chance of cells going
flat, and to measure the voltage of individual cells and throw out any that
are consistently below-par. Another way, the method that digital cameras
use, is to automatically shut down if the battery voltage falls below a
certain level, but this gets more difficult when you have a lot of cells in
series. Approx 11v shut off would be about right. Lead acid may be easier.
"Robert Oschler" <no-mail-please@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2N-dnWV-APDJPZ7fRVn-sw@adelphia.com...
"Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:taCdndnz2raV-57fRVn-1Q@comcast.com...
Those batteries are only 40mah, your camera would suck them down in a
minute
or two.
I would suggest AA or maybe AAA NMH (nickle metal hydride) batteries in a
ten cell series arrangement (which gives you 12v).
The NMH batteries have a higher milliamp hour rating than the small
1300mah
lead acid gel cells nowadays.
Earl,
Ok, thanks. Do I need to put a smoothing or regulating circuit between
the
batteries output and the output jack?
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum
|
A "nasty" way to reduce reverse voltage damage is to put a schottky
diode across each cell; gives worst case reverse bias of about 300mV.
Natch, any useage below 80 percent of rating for a period of time
(lower voltages, less time) will tend to decrease lifetime (like
radiation; dose rate). |
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Robert Baer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
Mitch Berkson wrote:
| Quote: |
Robert Oschler wrote:
Where would I look (URL's, web sites, vendors, etc.) to find a
battery based solution that is as close to my desired goal as
possible (minimum amount of work to complete the project)?
The other replies you have received assume that the wall wart is providing a
voltage which is regulated further in your device. This may not necessarily
be the case and, if it is not, you may damage your camera.
Mitch
|
Almost a false assumption on your part.
Almost all wall warts are *unregulated* and all of those have an
excessively high output voltage which increases as the loading decreases
from rated value.
Output voltage could be 14 to 16 or more volts in his application. |
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Mitch Berkson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
Robert Baer wrote:
| Quote: | Mitch Berkson wrote:
The other replies you have received assume that the wall wart is
providing a voltage which is regulated further in your device. This
may not necessarily be the case and, if it is not, you may damage
your camera.
Almost a false assumption on your part.
Almost all wall warts are *unregulated* and all of those have an
excessively high output voltage which increases as the loading
decreases from rated value.
Output voltage could be 14 to 16 or more volts in his application.
|
What's "almost a false assumption"? It's no assumption that almost all of
the other replies assume that the wall wart he has is unregulated. It's
also not an assumption that there are regulated wall warts. I have several.
I also have a regulated switching wall wart. It's irresponsible of you to
give someone the advice to replace their power supply without even asking
him whether it's regulated or not. But, it's not your camera, right?
Mitch |
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Robert Oschler
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4204C18C.616345F@earthlink.net...
| Quote: |
There are many small 12V sealed lead-acid batteries: PowerSonic
PS-1208 3.78L x 0.98W x 2.42H @0.8lb is their smallest (0.8AH at 20 hr
rate); Panasonic LCR121R3PU 3.82L x 1.87W x 1.97H @1.30lb is their
smallest (1.3AH at 20 hr rate); CSB GH1313 3.82L x 0.98W x 2.05H @1.28lb
is their smallest (1.3AH at 20 hr rate).
Sizes and capacities increase from there.
**
Concerning those Energizer cells, i see that the 20K load spec (40K
for 2 in series) would give (from their curve) a real service of 60-70
hours *IF* your unit had such a low drain.
And i do not think that your unit draws 500microamps!
Here is the spec sheet on the smallest of those i mentioned:
http://www.power-sonic.com/ps-1208.pdf
From that data sheet, the 5 hour rate (130mA to end at 10.2V) is about
what i would guess as to the actual characteristics you would see if
used with what you have (based on crude guess as to actual drain of that
equipment).
You should measure the actual current drain under typical operating
conditions, and work from there.
Lithium non-rechargeable cells give higher power density, but you
*pay* for that.
Some comparisons that may be of use, for D-cell size:
Eveready Dry cell 8000mAH, Eveready Alkaline 18000mAH, Sanyo NiCd
4400mAH, Energizer NiMH 2200mAH, Tadiran Lithium (3.6V) 16500mAH,
Tadrian Lithium high capacity (3.6V) 19000mAH.
That clearly shows that non-rechargeable cells perform better in this
class range, and the vaunted "lithium advantage" is bad on the wallet -
use alkalines instead, unless space/weight is a premium.
Where a lead-acid cell lies, it is hard to tell. Using P.216 of the
Radio Shack Enercell Battery Guidebook (62-1304 2nd Ed circa 1990), it
would seem that a D-cell size (2.0V) would yield about 2000mAH.
Hope this is of some help.
|
Thanks for the detailed reply Robert. Are those PowerSonic batteries
rechargeable?
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert Baer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
Robert Oschler wrote:
| Quote: |
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4204C18C.616345F@earthlink.net...
There are many small 12V sealed lead-acid batteries: PowerSonic
PS-1208 3.78L x 0.98W x 2.42H @0.8lb is their smallest (0.8AH at 20 hr
rate); Panasonic LCR121R3PU 3.82L x 1.87W x 1.97H @1.30lb is their
smallest (1.3AH at 20 hr rate); CSB GH1313 3.82L x 0.98W x 2.05H @1.28lb
is their smallest (1.3AH at 20 hr rate).
Sizes and capacities increase from there.
**
Concerning those Energizer cells, i see that the 20K load spec (40K
for 2 in series) would give (from their curve) a real service of 60-70
hours *IF* your unit had such a low drain.
And i do not think that your unit draws 500microamps!
Here is the spec sheet on the smallest of those i mentioned:
http://www.power-sonic.com/ps-1208.pdf
From that data sheet, the 5 hour rate (130mA to end at 10.2V) is about
what i would guess as to the actual characteristics you would see if
used with what you have (based on crude guess as to actual drain of that
equipment).
You should measure the actual current drain under typical operating
conditions, and work from there.
Lithium non-rechargeable cells give higher power density, but you
*pay* for that.
Some comparisons that may be of use, for D-cell size:
Eveready Dry cell 8000mAH, Eveready Alkaline 18000mAH, Sanyo NiCd
4400mAH, Energizer NiMH 2200mAH, Tadiran Lithium (3.6V) 16500mAH,
Tadrian Lithium high capacity (3.6V) 19000mAH.
That clearly shows that non-rechargeable cells perform better in this
class range, and the vaunted "lithium advantage" is bad on the wallet -
use alkalines instead, unless space/weight is a premium.
Where a lead-acid cell lies, it is hard to tell. Using P.216 of the
Radio Shack Enercell Battery Guidebook (62-1304 2nd Ed circa 1990), it
would seem that a D-cell size (2.0V) would yield about 2000mAH.
Hope this is of some help.
Thanks for the detailed reply Robert. Are those PowerSonic batteries
rechargeable?
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum
|
By definition, lead acid batteries are rechargeable.
Care and feeding of rechargeables:
1) Avoid deep discharge if at all possible - try to go no lower than 80
percent of rated value (which is 9.6V for a 12V battery). Recharge ASAP.
For many rechargeable chemistries, going below 90 percent of rating
(10.8V for a 12V battery) should be avoided for long periods of time.
In your application, allowing a discharge to this level can give
reasonable lifetime of use for the smaller batteries that i mentioned.
If the battery is re-charged within a reasonable time and stored charged
before re-use, the overall useability will not deteriorate much
(guesstimate of 1-3 years for reliable use).
2) Store charged - try for "trickle" charging during storage (or do so
on occasion at minimum).
Trickle charging for lead acid batteries can be based on a fixed
voltage or a fixed current (no more than 20C wher C is the amp-hour
rating).
A lead acid battery that has not been abused, and stored properly can
last 2-5 years as a reliable power source for emergency lighting, alarm
system power backup, electronic UPS systems and the like.
You gave no info concerning overall weight limits, space limits or
needed use time from one charge.
Maybe use of Eveready alkaline (non rechargeable) AA or C cells will
give a desirable useage time, in a fairly light and small package.
Again, measure the typical load current for starters. |
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