| Author |
Message |
Robert Baer
Guest
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 Posted:
Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:21 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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Mitch Berkson wrote:
| Quote: |
Robert Baer wrote:
Mitch Berkson wrote:
The other replies you have received assume that the wall wart is
providing a voltage which is regulated further in your device. This
may not necessarily be the case and, if it is not, you may damage
your camera.
Almost a false assumption on your part.
Almost all wall warts are *unregulated* and all of those have an
excessively high output voltage which increases as the loading
decreases from rated value.
Output voltage could be 14 to 16 or more volts in his application.
What's "almost a false assumption"? It's no assumption that almost all of
the other replies assume that the wall wart he has is unregulated. It's
also not an assumption that there are regulated wall warts. I have several.
I also have a regulated switching wall wart. It's irresponsible of you to
give someone the advice to replace their power supply without even asking
him whether it's regulated or not. But, it's not your camera, right?
Mitch
|
Well, excuse me!
I know damn well that there are regulated wall warts - both switchers
and linears; hence the care in the wording.
It is obvious that the camera has its own regulator inside; camera
batteries range from 3V to 6V.
Thus an extra expense of regulation in the wall wart leads to lower
profits to the maker.
The "worst case" scenarios are:
1) Unregulated (extremely high probability) wall wart, 16 to 18V to
camera.
A 12V battery replacement cannot possibly damage the camera and will
work well down to the indicated 10.2V as represented in the datasheet i
mentiond.
2) Regulated wall wart, 12V to camera.
Again a 12V battery replacement will do well.
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Robert Oschler
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:50 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4205DDE5.C60E9A22@earthlink.net...
| Quote: |
By definition, lead acid batteries are rechargeable.
Care and feeding of rechargeables:
1) Avoid deep discharge if at all possible - try to go no lower than 80
percent of rated value (which is 9.6V for a 12V battery). Recharge ASAP.
For many rechargeable chemistries, going below 90 percent of rating
(10.8V for a 12V battery) should be avoided for long periods of time.
In your application, allowing a discharge to this level can give
reasonable lifetime of use for the smaller batteries that i mentioned.
If the battery is re-charged within a reasonable time and stored charged
before re-use, the overall useability will not deteriorate much
(guesstimate of 1-3 years for reliable use).
2) Store charged - try for "trickle" charging during storage (or do so
on occasion at minimum).
Trickle charging for lead acid batteries can be based on a fixed
voltage or a fixed current (no more than 20C wher C is the amp-hour
rating).
A lead acid battery that has not been abused, and stored properly can
last 2-5 years as a reliable power source for emergency lighting, alarm
system power backup, electronic UPS systems and the like.
You gave no info concerning overall weight limits, space limits or
needed use time from one charge.
Maybe use of Eveready alkaline (non rechargeable) AA or C cells will
give a desirable useage time, in a fairly light and small package.
Again, measure the typical load current for starters.
|
Robert,
I am going to place the camera & transmitter on top of a Lego Mindstorms
Roverbot (small autonomous robot). I'll be using it intermittently, at most
a few hours a day. I want it as light as possible to reduce the load on the
*Roverbot* batteries. The heavier the overall item of course, the faster
the batteries on the *Roverbot*, not the camera, will burn out. If it's too
heavy obviously, the Roverbot just won't move, but I don't think that's a
problem. I'd like the battery "brick" to be about 3 inches by 4 inches.
That should sit on top of the Roverbot quite nicely, since the Roverbot
(Lego Mindstorms RCX brick computer), uses AA batteries itself.
I definitely want rechargeables because it will get daily use for a long
time to come.
Big thanks for the detailed reply.
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum |
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Mitch Berkson
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:02 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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Robert Baer wrote:
| Quote: |
The "worst case" scenarios are:
1) Unregulated (extremely high probability) wall wart, 16 to 18V to
camera.
A 12V battery replacement cannot possibly damage the camera and will
work well down to the indicated 10.2V as represented in the datasheet
i mentiond.
2) Regulated wall wart, 12V to camera.
Again a 12V battery replacement will do well.
|
Many of the battery chemistries discussed have initial actual voltages above
12V for a nominal 12V configuration. If the camera expects regulated 12V
these could damage it. I agree it's unlikely, but in light of the scope of
the other data and advice being offerred, it is surprising that no one is
even concerned about this.
Mitch
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Robert Baer
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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Robert Oschler wrote:
| Quote: |
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4205DDE5.C60E9A22@earthlink.net...
By definition, lead acid batteries are rechargeable.
Care and feeding of rechargeables:
1) Avoid deep discharge if at all possible - try to go no lower than 80
percent of rated value (which is 9.6V for a 12V battery). Recharge ASAP.
For many rechargeable chemistries, going below 90 percent of rating
(10.8V for a 12V battery) should be avoided for long periods of time.
In your application, allowing a discharge to this level can give
reasonable lifetime of use for the smaller batteries that i mentioned.
If the battery is re-charged within a reasonable time and stored charged
before re-use, the overall useability will not deteriorate much
(guesstimate of 1-3 years for reliable use).
2) Store charged - try for "trickle" charging during storage (or do so
on occasion at minimum).
Trickle charging for lead acid batteries can be based on a fixed
voltage or a fixed current (no more than 20C wher C is the amp-hour
rating).
A lead acid battery that has not been abused, and stored properly can
last 2-5 years as a reliable power source for emergency lighting, alarm
system power backup, electronic UPS systems and the like.
You gave no info concerning overall weight limits, space limits or
needed use time from one charge.
Maybe use of Eveready alkaline (non rechargeable) AA or C cells will
give a desirable useage time, in a fairly light and small package.
Again, measure the typical load current for starters.
Robert,
I am going to place the camera & transmitter on top of a Lego Mindstorms
Roverbot (small autonomous robot). I'll be using it intermittently, at most
a few hours a day. I want it as light as possible to reduce the load on the
*Roverbot* batteries. The heavier the overall item of course, the faster
the batteries on the *Roverbot*, not the camera, will burn out. If it's too
heavy obviously, the Roverbot just won't move, but I don't think that's a
problem. I'd like the battery "brick" to be about 3 inches by 4 inches.
That should sit on top of the Roverbot quite nicely, since the Roverbot
(Lego Mindstorms RCX brick computer), uses AA batteries itself.
I definitely want rechargeables because it will get daily use for a long
time to come.
Big thanks for the detailed reply.
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum
|
For the lightest battery in a given volume, the Lithium
non-rechargeables wins.
Next comes the Eveready Alkaline non-rechargeables, AA size.
Rechargeables would not have anywhere as long running time per charge
compared to using those alkalines.
Perhaps you could plan for the AA size and try the Eveready Alkaline
first, and if not satisfied, then try the Panasonic NiCd P-100AASJ
(Digikey #P252, Pg 1354) which is rated at 1000mAH, or the Sanyo
equivalent (Mouser #639-KR1000AAU, Pg 1322).
I think that the Alkalines will do well.
Remember, the Roverbot uses them - so that makes for easier shopping. |
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Robert Oschler
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:25 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4207214F.754BE71A@earthlink.net...
| Quote: | For the lightest battery in a given volume, the Lithium
non-rechargeables wins.
Next comes the Eveready Alkaline non-rechargeables, AA size.
Rechargeables would not have anywhere as long running time per charge
compared to using those alkalines.
Perhaps you could plan for the AA size and try the Eveready Alkaline
first, and if not satisfied, then try the Panasonic NiCd P-100AASJ
(Digikey #P252, Pg 1354) which is rated at 1000mAH, or the Sanyo
equivalent (Mouser #639-KR1000AAU, Pg 1322).
I think that the Alkalines will do well.
Remember, the Roverbot uses them - so that makes for easier shopping.
|
Good points. I wonder why rechargeables dissipate faster than
non-rechargeables?
I think for now I will go with the Eveready Alkaline AA's. I found an 8
pack AA battery holder for cheap at Radio shack and a transformer connector
too that fits the camera, so now I get to find out if the camera works off
batteries. I'll be hooking it all up tomorrow.
This is going to be part of my DID project (Duck Irritation Device). We've
got these ducks in our neighborhood that I feed bread occassionally. My
roverbot is going to follow them around and send back video images. I'm
betting if I wait long enough I can catch one of them saying "AFLAC" on
video.
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum |
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Robert Baer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
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Robert Oschler wrote:
| Quote: |
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4207214F.754BE71A@earthlink.net...
For the lightest battery in a given volume, the Lithium
non-rechargeables wins.
Next comes the Eveready Alkaline non-rechargeables, AA size.
Rechargeables would not have anywhere as long running time per charge
compared to using those alkalines.
Perhaps you could plan for the AA size and try the Eveready Alkaline
first, and if not satisfied, then try the Panasonic NiCd P-100AASJ
(Digikey #P252, Pg 1354) which is rated at 1000mAH, or the Sanyo
equivalent (Mouser #639-KR1000AAU, Pg 1322).
I think that the Alkalines will do well.
Remember, the Roverbot uses them - so that makes for easier shopping.
Good points. I wonder why rechargeables dissipate faster than
non-rechargeables?
I think for now I will go with the Eveready Alkaline AA's. I found an 8
pack AA battery holder for cheap at Radio shack and a transformer connector
too that fits the camera, so now I get to find out if the camera works off
batteries. I'll be hooking it all up tomorrow.
This is going to be part of my DID project (Duck Irritation Device). We've
got these ducks in our neighborhood that I feed bread occassionally. My
roverbot is going to follow them around and send back video images. I'm
betting if I wait long enough I can catch one of them saying "AFLAC" on
video.
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum
|
That would be a gas!
As a point of reference, please measure the current drain from that
12V wall wart when the camera is in use and just sitting and waiting.
Also, as has been mentioned, also measure the voltage to the camera
(both modes).
The second part is to satisfy the "worry wart" that implied that a 12V
battery could damage the camera.
Please post the values for all to see. |
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Matthew Gunn
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:06 pm Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
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Robert Baer wrote:
| Quote: | Robert Oschler wrote:
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4207214F.754BE71A@earthlink.net...
For the lightest battery in a given volume, the Lithium
non-rechargeables wins.
Next comes the Eveready Alkaline non-rechargeables, AA size.
Also, as has been mentioned, also measure the voltage to the camera
(both modes).
The second part is to satisfy the "worry wart" that implied that a 12V
battery could damage the camera.
Please post the values for all to see.
|
"worry wart", very punny, lol.
Hey I've never heard of these power adapters being called a wall wart
before. |
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Robert Oschler
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:05 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42087E17.DD1EADF3@earthlink.net...
| Quote: |
That would be a gas!
As a point of reference, please measure the current drain from that
12V wall wart when the camera is in use and just sitting and waiting.
Also, as has been mentioned, also measure the voltage to the camera
(both modes).
The second part is to satisfy the "worry wart" that implied that a 12V
battery could damage the camera.
Please post the values for all to see.
|
Robert,
What's the easiest way to measure the current drain from the wall wart when
the camera is on and idling, and to measure the voltage to the camera?
Sounds like I need to buy a gizmo from Radio Shack.
Thanks
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum |
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Robert Oschler
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:10 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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"Matthew Gunn" <matthewgunn_au@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42087fcc$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
| Quote: | "worry wart", very punny, lol.
Hey I've never heard of these power adapters being called a wall wart
before.
|
Matt,
Other Robert here (OP).
They're called wall warts in the music industry. If you are a musician with
a lot of effects boxes (distortion pedal, phaser box, etc.), those wall
warts are a pain to attach to a power strip because they don't sit next to
each other well (think of the geometry). In fact there are companies that
make "wart removers". A wart remove is just a very short power cord,
usually about 8" at most, with a flat plastic panel at the end that has a
single AC plug outlet. This moves the wall wart away from the power strip
and allows you to easily plug multiple effects boxes into a power strip.
Thanks
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum |
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Robert Oschler
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:16 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42087E17.DD1EADF3@earthlink.net...
| Quote: | That would be a gas!
|
The fun part is going to come when I make my DID (Duck Irritation Device) an
airboat. A long time ago I bought this UFO toy which was basically a big
helium baloon with two radio controlled propeller fans in a plastic housing,
taped to the bottom of the baloon. I pulled the propeller fans out of the
plastic housing and as soon as I get my new connector lead set, I'll be
hooking them up to my Lego Mindstorm RCX brick computer. The RCX brick was
too heavy to be connected to the helium baloon (that would have been fun!),
but I'm betting that in a lightweight small boat; the two fans should make
it move pretty fast. I'll put the wireless transmitter camera in the boat
too. My biggest design problem is having a failsafe so if a duck gets mad
and sinks my boat, I don't lose everything! :)
Thanks
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum |
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Robert Baer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
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Robert Oschler wrote:
| Quote: |
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42087E17.DD1EADF3@earthlink.net...
That would be a gas!
As a point of reference, please measure the current drain from that
12V wall wart when the camera is in use and just sitting and waiting.
Also, as has been mentioned, also measure the voltage to the camera
(both modes).
The second part is to satisfy the "worry wart" that implied that a 12V
battery could damage the camera.
Please post the values for all to see.
Robert,
What's the easiest way to measure the current drain from the wall wart when
the camera is on and idling, and to measure the voltage to the camera?
Sounds like I need to buy a gizmo from Radio Shack.
Thanks
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum
|
I am surprised that you do not have a DVM (or a VOM).
Depending on (possible) future useage, you could get an el-cheapo VOM
from the likes of harbor freight (about $2) or at R.S. (about $25); for
a good DVM at prices better than at R.S., try Jameco.
Look for meters that have 2 or more current ranges not counting a 10
amp range; the R.S. $15 VOM has only one range (150mA) and may not be
adequate for this application.
The Jameco DVMs go from about $10 and up. |
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Andrew Wagstaff
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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Altronics in Australia sell slim line plugpacks (wall warts), that allow you
to have two of them side by side in a double powerpoint.
http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=M9208
Regards
Andrew |
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Matthew Gunn
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
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|
Robert Oschler wrote:
| Quote: | "Matthew Gunn" <matthewgunn_au@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42087fcc$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
"worry wart", very punny, lol.
Hey I've never heard of these power adapters being called a wall wart
before.
Matt,
Other Robert here (OP).
They're called wall warts in the music industry. If you are a musician with
a lot of effects boxes (distortion pedal, phaser box, etc.), those wall
warts are a pain to attach to a power strip because they don't sit next to
each other well (think of the geometry). In fact there are companies that
make "wart removers". A wart remove is just a very short power cord,
usually about 8" at most, with a flat plastic panel at the end that has a
single AC plug outlet. This moves the wall wart away from the power strip
and allows you to easily plug multiple effects boxes into a power strip.
Thanks
Yeh, sweet. They are a pain in the ass, even at home. So many things |
these days are low voltage so they come with one of these things. You'd
think someone would design one that can be plugged in next to other ones
or other plugs. I also didn't know you could get the wart removers but
usually have to resort to 1m or 2m extension cords.
You can get powerboards that allow for a couple of them but I still
think it would be easier if the bloody things weren't so wide. |
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Robert Baer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
Robert Oschler wrote:
| Quote: |
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42087E17.DD1EADF3@earthlink.net...
That would be a gas!
The fun part is going to come when I make my DID (Duck Irritation Device) an
airboat. A long time ago I bought this UFO toy which was basically a big
helium baloon with two radio controlled propeller fans in a plastic housing,
taped to the bottom of the baloon. I pulled the propeller fans out of the
plastic housing and as soon as I get my new connector lead set, I'll be
hooking them up to my Lego Mindstorm RCX brick computer. The RCX brick was
too heavy to be connected to the helium baloon (that would have been fun!),
but I'm betting that in a lightweight small boat; the two fans should make
it move pretty fast. I'll put the wireless transmitter camera in the boat
too. My biggest design problem is having a failsafe so if a duck gets mad
and sinks my boat, I don't lose everything! :)
Thanks
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum
|
Now *that* sounds very interesting!
One duck to another "It *was* an UFO!. It even talked (quacked) back
to me! I swear, I am not going quackers!". |
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Robert Oschler
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:
Re: Battery power to replace wall power supply? |
|
|
"Matthew Gunn" <matthewgunn_au@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42099368$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
| Quote: | Yeh, sweet. They are a pain in the ass, even at home. So many things
these days are low voltage so they come with one of these things. You'd
think someone would design one that can be plugged in next to other ones
or other plugs. I also didn't know you could get the wart removers but
usually have to resort to 1m or 2m extension cords.
You can get powerboards that allow for a couple of them but I still
think it would be easier if the bloody things weren't so wide.
|
Matt,
Here's where I get mine, they're pretty cheap:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/search/detail/base_pid/334001
--
Robert Oschler
http://www.robotsrule.com/phpBB2/
Robot & Android Discussion Forum |
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