| Author |
Message |
Winfield Hill
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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keith wrote...
| Quote: |
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:06:45 -0400, mc wrote:
How does free distribution of *obsolete* manuals work against "encouraging
creativity"?
We are not attacking the concept of copyright. Many of us are saying HP
would benefit from allowing free redistribution on the Web of old manuals
for equipment that they no longer sell.
In fact you are attacking the concept of copyright. Aligent owns the
copyright and has the last say. It seems that they _have_ reversed their
position, so maybe your whining did help. ;-)
|
I beg to differ, we did not attack Agilent's legal right to restrict the
manual information if they chose, we attacked Agilent's apparent choice
to do so. It now appears they did no more than (roughly) assert their
right to grant permission after it's sought, which we do not question.
But we do argue that it would have been unreasonable, counterproductive,
mean-minded and unfair to deprive the legitimate owners of their older
instruments the right to fully run and maintain those instruments, if
they were unfortunate enough not to own one of the rare original manuals.
--
Thanks,
- Win
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Don Lancaster
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
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mc wrote:
| Quote: | How does free distribution of *obsolete* manuals work against "encouraging
creativity"?
We are not attacking the concept of copyright. Many of us are saying HP
would benefit from allowing free redistribution on the Web of old manuals
for equipment that they no longer sell.
|
Tektronix has specifically released their copyrights on obsolete manuals.
--
Many thanks,
Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com
Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com |
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John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun May 01, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
On 30 Apr 2005 12:46:00 -0700, Winfield Hill
<hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote:
| Quote: | I should add, that at this point, after the dust has settled, it does
not appear Agilent is in fact overly restricting the copying of their
old manuals (despite the language of their lawyer's take-down letter),
because they do grant permission when it's sought, including a type of
blanket permission, and also even including the right to charge for the
service, AFAICT.
|
---
Interesting choice of words, in that there is no "right" being
granted, it's a _privilege_, the exercising of which Agilent
apparently now allows and can curtail at any time, as it sees fit.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
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Winfield Hill
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun May 01, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
Winfield Hill wrote...
| Quote: |
keith wrote...
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:06:45 -0400, mc wrote:
How does free distribution of *obsolete* manuals work against "encouraging
creativity"?
We are not attacking the concept of copyright. Many of us are saying HP
would benefit from allowing free redistribution on the Web of old manuals
for equipment that they no longer sell.
In fact you are attacking the concept of copyright. Aligent owns the
copyright and has the last say. It seems that they _have_ reversed their
position, so maybe your whining did help. ;-)
I beg to differ, we did not attack Agilent's legal right to restrict the
manual information if they chose, we attacked Agilent's apparent choice
to do so. It now appears they did no more than (roughly) assert their
right to grant permission after it's sought, which we do not question.
But we do argue that it would have been unreasonable, counterproductive,
mean-minded and unfair to deprive the legitimate owners of their older
instruments the right to fully run and maintain those instruments, if
they were unfortunate enough not to own one of the rare original manuals.
|
I should add, that at this point, after the dust has settled, it does
not appear Agilent is in fact overly restricting the copying of their
old manuals (despite the language of their lawyer's take-down letter),
because they do grant permission when it's sought, including a type of
blanket permission, and also even including the right to charge for the
service, AFAICT. BTW, I received an email from the (former) co-leader
of HP's company-wide committee handling this issue, and this was their
economically-derived carefully-thought-out company policy six years ago,
and it would still appear to be, unless we learn otherwise.
So, it all appears to be a non-issue. Move along, nothing to see here.
--
Thanks,
- Win |
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Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun May 01, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
"Leonard Martin" <lmarti49NOSPAM@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:lmarti49NOSPAM-E2DF67.22084927042005@bignews.bellsouth.net...
| Quote: | In article <1114279907.850741.161850@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Chris" <cfoley1064@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
[snip]
| Quote: | Chris
Well, how nice for you that you function in a world where $75 for a
manual is small change! There are lots of us hobbyists out here who
like
to experiment with electronics but who might find that to be their
"mad"
money for a month. Somehow, as one of them, I'm not convinced by your
"all us well-off businessmen should be good t each other" argument.
This kind of stuff is part of a trend that's been going on, to my
amazement, for a couple of decades now. It might be summed up as
"Business is more important than anything. The market is God.
Whatever's
good for either is great, and the devil take the rest!" Under this
regime each new enormity perpetrated by some business, like this one
by
Aligent (or the copyright extension that business got away with a
while
ago) first causes a bit of squirming on the part of the victims, but
then other virtuous souls remind them of the three divine maxims set
out
above, and everyone then naturally knuckles under.
How did a once-free, and in fact instinctively rebellious, people come
to this?
|
It seems that to maintain civility, some loss of freedom seems to be
necessary. Like with spam and email. Taking away the ability to spam
anonymously brings complaints from those who say that will also take
away the freedom to email anonymously. Yeah, it seems so. If you want
to remain anonymous by wearing a ski mask, it'd probably make a lot of
difference on how you're treated when you walk into a 7-11.
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mc
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun May 01, 2005 12:58 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
"Winfield Hill" <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote in
message news:d50bdk022og@drn.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | keith wrote...
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:06:45 -0400, mc wrote:
How does free distribution of *obsolete* manuals work against
"encouraging
creativity"?
We are not attacking the concept of copyright. Many of us are saying HP
would benefit from allowing free redistribution on the Web of old
manuals
for equipment that they no longer sell.
In fact you are attacking the concept of copyright. Aligent owns the
copyright and has the last say. It seems that they _have_ reversed their
position, so maybe your whining did help. ;-)
I beg to differ, we did not attack Agilent's legal right to restrict the
manual information if they chose, we attacked Agilent's apparent choice
to do so.
|
Precisely. They have the legal right to restrict redistribution of this
stuff any way they want. However, it does not benefit them to do what they
were doing. That was everyone's point except Keith's. |
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Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun May 01, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
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John Larkin <jjlarkin@highnotlandthistechnologypart.com> wrote:
| Quote: | We recently introduced a benchtop instrument that has a 'help' key on
the front panel.
|
This is very much in the right direction. However, as you note...
| Quote: | I wrote a lot of the help text. It was interesting to try to write
clear and coherent stuff that looks good on a 20-character-wide
display... lots of synonym searching and syntax shuffling was
involved. Lots.
|
....it's not a substitute for a full manual. I have designed a layout
of three 20x4 screens on a (very much simpler) instrument. Each one
had to display some data plus give labels for soft keys to switch
screens, and even this was interesting to make fit.
| Quote: | Many high-end instruments now have a VGA-quality display and have
serious help facilities; you could put the real manual into something
like that.
|
True. It might be nice, though, to be able to get it printed somehow,
or at least read it on a machine with a full keyboard so you could do
text searches and such.
| Quote: | Good idea about a web site inside the instrument; we'll have to try
that some day.
|
One of the problems I see with this is that you need to know the IP
address of the instrument to make this work. If the IP address is
fixed and noted on the serial number label or something, it's easy.
If the user can adjust it, or if it uses DHCP, it might be trickier...
you'd need to have a way to show it on the built-in display or
otherwise make it known to the user so they know where to point their
browser. I guess you could put the MAC address on the serial number
label and let the user use ARP to figure it out. Another way might
be to have a note on the case that holding the "4" key during power-up
resets the IP address to 10.0.0.1 or whatever. A clever user could
directly connect the instrument to the PC and run a port scan, although
this might take a while.
You know what would be entertaining? Put the manual on the instrument's
internal Web site, and then ship exactly one piece of printed
documentation with the instrument: a piece of paper that explains how
to access the manual. Put a Web bug in the last page of the manual that
loads from your Internet Web site and logs the serial number of the
instrument. You could work out exactly how many people actually RTFM...
(OK, this isn't practical for marketing/customer acceptance/privacy
reasons, but it would be fun.)
To the other points that have been raised: I was originally thinking
of using the instrument's built-in CPU so all the user would need would
be a "dumb" flash drive. However, if the user has a flash drive, there
is also a PC available to read the files on it, so it's not too
unreasonable to put the ROM USB drive in the instrument and let the
user hook up a PC. Also, the ROM drive can then be powered over the USB
port, so it will work even if the instrument is broken -- unless the
instrument got stepped on by an elephant or something. This also means
that the USB port can be isolated from the instrument circuitry, which
could be important for safety reasons. Also, a ROM drive with USB
connector could conceivably be small enough to include in something like
a hand-held DMM. The ROM would make it a little harder to include the
addenda pages - maybe the drive has a big ROM and a little flash chip to
make this possible. I still want to use ROM because if it can be erased
it will be. I am also quite serious about this being firmly attached
(potted?) to the instrument... if it's not, people will remove and
promptly misplace it, or sell it separately from the instrument later.
Matt Roberds |
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Rich Grise
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:37:42 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark
Remover" wrote:
| Quote: | "Leonard Martin" <lmarti49NOSPAM@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
How did a once-free, and in fact instinctively rebellious, people come
to this?
It seems that to maintain civility, some loss of freedom seems to be
necessary. Like with spam and email. Taking away the ability to spam
anonymously brings complaints from those who say that will also take
away the freedom to email anonymously. Yeah, it seems so. If you want
to remain anonymous by wearing a ski mask, it'd probably make a lot of
difference on how you're treated when you walk into a 7-11.
This brings to mind those who answer their telephone when their caller |
ID says "unknown" or "anonymous" or whatever it is. Why would I want the
people whom I'm pestering to not know who I am?
Thanks,
Rich |
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keith
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon May 02, 2005 6:21 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 09:23:16 -0700, Winfield Hill wrote:
| Quote: | keith wrote...
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:06:45 -0400, mc wrote:
How does free distribution of *obsolete* manuals work against "encouraging
creativity"?
We are not attacking the concept of copyright. Many of us are saying HP
would benefit from allowing free redistribution on the Web of old manuals
for equipment that they no longer sell.
In fact you are attacking the concept of copyright. Aligent owns the
copyright and has the last say. It seems that they _have_ reversed their
position, so maybe your whining did help. ;-)
I beg to differ, we did not attack Agilent's legal right to restrict the
manual information if they chose, we attacked Agilent's apparent choice
to do so.
|
Speak for youself. ...though I did note that you were going to hide
behind your "library" (fair use) rights. Don't get me wrong, I think
their desision was dumb, but it *was* their desision (fortunately
recinded, AIUI).
| Quote: | It now appears they did no more than (roughly) assert their
right to grant permission after it's sought, which we do not question.
|
It's more than that. You (and others) beleived that their rights were
limited by availability. On the contrary, their rights are limited by
their wishes. ...for whatever business reasons they seem to think is in
their interest.
| Quote: | But we do argue that it would have been unreasonable,
|
I'm not going to talk about "unreasonable". I don't have the information.
I *do* know that it is *THEIR* choice.
| Quote: | counterproductive, mean-minded and unfair to deprive the legitimate
owners of their older instruments the right to fully run and maintain
those instruments, if they were unfortunate enough not to own one of
the rare original manuals.
|
Oh, my; "mean-minded"! I want you to publish your books on the internet.
To do otherwise is "mean-minded". You above all here, should understand
the importance of the copyright.
--
Keith |
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keith
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon May 02, 2005 6:24 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:03:38 -0500, John Fields wrote:
| Quote: | On 30 Apr 2005 12:46:00 -0700, Winfield Hill
hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote:
I should add, that at this point, after the dust has settled, it does
not appear Agilent is in fact overly restricting the copying of their
old manuals (despite the language of their lawyer's take-down letter),
because they do grant permission when it's sought, including a type of
blanket permission, and also even including the right to charge for the
service, AFAICT.
---
Interesting choice of words, in that there is no "right" being
granted, it's a _privilege_, the exercising of which Agilent
apparently now allows and can curtail at any time, as it sees fit.
|
Exactly! Were I Aligent, I'd publish them and bust the heads of anyone
else doing the same. There is likely a contract to another publishing
company that's getting in the way here too. This stuff isn't as simple as
the academics wish it to be.
--
Keith |
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mc
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon May 02, 2005 6:56 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
| Quote: | I beg to differ, we did not attack Agilent's legal right to restrict the
manual information if they chose, we attacked Agilent's apparent choice
to do so.
Speak for youself. ...though I did note that you were going to hide
behind your "library" (fair use) rights. Don't get me wrong, I think
their desision was dumb, but it *was* their desision (fortunately
recinded, AIUI).
It now appears they did no more than (roughly) assert their
right to grant permission after it's sought, which we do not question.
It's more than that. You (and others) beleived that their rights were
limited by availability. On the contrary, their rights are limited by
their wishes. ...for whatever business reasons they seem to think is in
their interest.
|
No, I did not believe that. The main point that all of us were making is
that HP was doing something that did not seem to be in HP's own best
interest, whether or not they realized it.
But it seems that a large portion of copyright law has not yet dawned on
you. Laws are not like computer programs. They do not operate simply by
being written. Copyright laws are enforced by courts, largely through suits
for damages. If there is no damage, there is nothing to sue for. That is
how the concept of fair use was originally recognized, although nowadays it
is formally written into the law.
| Quote: | But we do argue that it would have been unreasonable,
I'm not going to talk about "unreasonable". I don't have the information.
I *do* know that it is *THEIR* choice.
Oh, my; "mean-minded"! I want you to publish your books on the internet.
To do otherwise is "mean-minded". You above all here, should understand
the importance of the copyright.
|
Please, please, please, go and READ A BOOK ABOUT COPYRIGHT LAW. I recommend
"The Copyright Book," by Strong, published by MIT Press. |
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Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon May 02, 2005 7:05 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.02.01.21.49.586377@att.bizzzz...
| Quote: | On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 09:23:16 -0700, Winfield Hill wrote:
keith wrote...
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:06:45 -0400, mc wrote:
How does free distribution of *obsolete* manuals work against
"encouraging
creativity"?
We are not attacking the concept of copyright. Many of us are
saying HP
would benefit from allowing free redistribution on the Web of old
manuals
for equipment that they no longer sell.
In fact you are attacking the concept of copyright. Aligent owns
the
copyright and has the last say. It seems that they _have_ reversed
their
position, so maybe your whining did help. ;-)
I beg to differ, we did not attack Agilent's legal right to
restrict the
manual information if they chose, we attacked Agilent's apparent
choice
to do so.
Speak for youself. ...though I did note that you were going to hide
behind your "library" (fair use) rights. Don't get me wrong, I think
their desision was dumb, but it *was* their desision (fortunately
recinded, AIUI).
It now appears they did no more than (roughly) assert their
right to grant permission after it's sought, which we do not
question.
It's more than that. You (and others) beleived that their rights were
limited by availability. On the contrary, their rights are limited by
their wishes. ...for whatever business reasons they seem to think is
in
their interest.
But we do argue that it would have been unreasonable,
I'm not going to talk about "unreasonable". I don't have the
information.
I *do* know that it is *THEIR* choice.
counterproductive, mean-minded and unfair to deprive the legitimate
owners of their older instruments the right to fully run and
maintain
those instruments, if they were unfortunate enough not to own one
of
the rare original manuals.
Oh, my; "mean-minded"! I want you to publish your books on the
internet.
To do otherwise is "mean-minded". You above all here, should
understand
the importance of the copyright.
|
And you should learn the difference between a book and a manual.
|
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James Sweet
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon May 02, 2005 8:06 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
| Quote: | Exactly! Were I Aligent, I'd publish them and bust the heads of anyone
else doing the same. There is likely a contract to another publishing
company that's getting in the way here too. This stuff isn't as simple as
the academics wish it to be.
|
We're not talking a work of art, entertainment, or even an optional service
manual. This is an operator manual that originally came with each and every
piece of gear correct? The manual is of no use without the gear and since
each piece of gear originally came with the manual, if you have the gear but
are missing the manual I see no moral or ethical reason not to copy it.
Seems reasonable that by owning the equipment you own the rights to have a
copy of the manual, it's like giving someone a copy of a driver for a piece
of computer hardware they own, only the intellectual property zealots would
have any sort of problem with it. |
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Winfield Hill
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon May 02, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
James Sweet wrote...
| Quote: |
Exactly! Were I Aligent, I'd publish them and bust the heads of anyone
else doing the same. There is likely a contract to another publishing
company that's getting in the way here too. This stuff isn't as simple as
the academics wish it to be.
We're not talking a work of art, entertainment, or even an optional service
manual. This is an operator manual that originally came with each and every
piece of gear correct? The manual is of no use without the gear and since
each piece of gear originally came with the manual, if you have the gear but
are missing the manual I see no moral or ethical reason not to copy it.
Seems reasonable that by owning the equipment you own the rights to have a
copy of the manual, it's like giving someone a copy of a driver for a piece
of computer hardware they own, only the intellectual property zealots would
have any sort of problem with it.
|
Although the present discussion has been defused by Agilent giving BAMA
permission to freely distribute their old HP manual copies from their
website, we're game for the discussion to continue anyway. :>)
I agree with your point, James Sweet, but the issue isn't simply an
instrument owner copying an operating manual for his own use; remember,
he doesn't have one to copy! Instead, it's the right of someone who
has a manual (and likely no instrument) to copy it, for a fee, for
someone else. Clearly if that broad right isn't granted, this putative
someone won't have any motivation to provide the sought-after service
to this putative somebody else. Furthermore, our putative somebody else
may well not have an HP instrument either, and may merely wish to peruse
the designs of the masters for his own purposes. Perhaps he is writing
a book, or designing an improved version of the old instrument... We
consider these possibilities just to complicate matters, don't you see.
--
Thanks,
- Win |
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Winfield Hill
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon May 02, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
John Woodgate wrote...
| Quote: |
I read in sci.electronics.design that Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz
wrote (in <MPG.1cdfe64bf6719ec1989a1a@news.individual.net>) about
'Copyright on HP service manuals', on Mon, 2 May 2005:
Win Hill wrote:
And you should learn the difference between a book and a manual.
Ok, maybe you want to explain what this "difference" has to do with
copyright law.
Isn't that the point? Copyright law is still in the 18th century and
should be replaced by something SENSIBLE in the context of the 21st
century.
|
Actually, I didn't write any of the above.
--
Thanks,
- Win |
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