| Author |
Message |
Dave
Guest
|
 Posted:
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
I don't have any HP user or service manuals, but I suspect they are
copyrighted. Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to copy an HP
manual and put it on the web.
The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported. I'm
hoping to obtain a copy and was wondering where I wold stand in making
it publicly available.
Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to do this on equipment
manuals? I know there are a lot of dealers that do it, but whether or
not they pay for the privilidge I don't know.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Doug
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MetalHead
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:44 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
Dave wrote:
| Quote: | I don't have any HP user or service manuals, but I suspect they are
copyrighted. Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to copy an HP
manual and put it on the web.
The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported. I'm
hoping to obtain a copy and was wondering where I wold stand in making
it publicly available.
Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to do this on equipment
manuals? I know there are a lot of dealers that do it, but whether or
not they pay for the privilidge I don't know.
|
Take a look at Agilent's web site. If I remember correctly, they put a
bunch of the stuff out in the public domain or something very close to
that. Last time I was rummaging around on their site, I saw the notice
and was impressed enough to remember it.
Bob
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Larkin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:18 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 01:42:38 +0100, Dave <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I don't have any HP user or service manuals, but I suspect they are
copyrighted. Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to copy an HP
manual and put it on the web.
The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported. I'm
hoping to obtain a copy and was wondering where I wold stand in making
it publicly available.
Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to do this on equipment
manuals? I know there are a lot of dealers that do it, but whether or
not they pay for the privilidge I don't know.
|
Lots of people sell cd's of old HP and Tek manuals on ebay. And you
can buy an original 5370B manual lots of places.
That's a great counter, incidentally. I have 3 or 4 of them, a lot
older than '95 I think. It has 25 ps single-shot resolution, and the
jitter typically runs around 30 rms, a lot less than the new SRS
clone. The CPU is a an ancient nmos depletion-load 6800, and it'll
process about 2000 shots per second; the firmware must be heavy-duty
clever.
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old unsupported
equipment. Look at this:
http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf
....Stepan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Winfield Hill
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
Stepan, steevjanpan@hotmail.com wrote...
I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.
That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.
--
Thanks,
- Win |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
Jim Thompson wrote:
| Quote: | When I ran the Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad ...
|
GenRad. No kidding? I hadn't run into a GenRad guy for many years.
Back in '76, during college break, I interviewed for a temp. technician position
at GenRad in Concord, MA. The particular dept. developed bed-of-nails-type
board testers, the brains of which were PDP (8? 10? 11?) mini's. I was
impressed by the engineers, *very* intrigued by the work, and was quite keen to
get the job but ... some to-be college senior got it.
I wound up at Data Terminal Systems (point-of-sale terminals) in Maynard (home
of DEC, coincidently). Them thar new fangled cash registers used the PPS-4 chip
set. Very sexy. Much mo' better than a mini. :-) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
On 22 Apr 2005 04:05:20 -0700, Winfield Hill
<hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote:
| Quote: | Stepan, steevjanpan@hotmail.com wrote...
HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:
http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf
I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.
That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.
|
Shakespeare was correct ;-)
But I've had a bias against hp equipment for at least 30 years... a
whole lot of it was crap or became crap within one year. When I ran
the Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad I forbade the purchase of
hp 'scopes.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kryten
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
"Winfield Hill" <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote in
message news:d4alpg01vk5@drn.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | Stepan, steevjanpan@hotmail.com wrote...
HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:
That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed.
|
Maybe you could start a petition from all HP enthusiasts.
I can see HP's point in that if someone puts poor-quality scans of their
manuals up, some people might think it reflects HP quality in documentation.
I'd argue anyone smart enough to need and buy HP kit would not blame HP/Ag.
HP made a good name for good kit that did a good job and price took second
place.
They were an American icon, like Harley Davison or Maglite or Leatherman.
Then some pointy haired bunch threw away the old name, diversified into new
areas, and promptly turned a steady business into instability.
Hmph.
Perhaps one could ask HP to provide the better versions, maybe donate mint
condition manuals for scanning or even original files.
| Quote: | It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests
|
On one hand they pressure people to buy new products by doing so, but as a
customer I'd be put off buying kit from a company that was so petty as to
begrudge manuals to a old customers.
Making manuals free in electronic form reduces the waste of paper and office
space, which helps everyone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daniel Haude
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:15:15 GMT,
steevjanpan@hotmail.com <steevjanpan@hotmail.com> wrote
in Msg. <s2gh61t1627dbgq2841124f5h6hui9l7d0@4ax.com>
| Quote: | HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old unsupported
equipment. Look at this:
|
That's sooo idiotic. Companies that don't want to host old stuff on their
websites any more should be *thankful* if others did so. They should offer
their stuff for free for anybody who would want to distribute it. Free
marketing.
--Daniel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Woodgate
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
<hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote (in
<d4alpg01vk5@drn.newsguy.com>) about 'Copyright on HP service manuals',
on Fri, 22 Apr 2005:
| Quote: | That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent.
|
The crux is whether indeed Agilent have been habitually refusing, or
will refuse, to supply. The letter by itself is unobjectionable; someone
else should not be selling (or even providing free) a copyrighted work.
| Quote: | For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.
|
All the above is totally pertinent IFFI Agilent refuse to supply.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mc
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
| Quote: | That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests,
|
Well said!
Does Agilent actually make money selling these old manuals? No? They
probably have always lost money selling manuals. Accordingly, they should
be glad that somebody else wants to do it for them!
Also, their copyright might be hard to enforce if they no longer sell the
manuals themselves. No loss of market; no harm; nothing to sue for. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:26:13 GMT, Michael <NoSpam@att.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Thompson wrote:
When I ran the Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad ...
GenRad. No kidding? I hadn't run into a GenRad guy for many years.
Back in '76, during college break, I interviewed for a temp. technician position
at GenRad in Concord, MA. The particular dept. developed bed-of-nails-type
board testers, the brains of which were PDP (8? 10? 11?) mini's. I was
impressed by the engineers, *very* intrigued by the work, and was quite keen to
get the job but ... some to-be college senior got it.
I wound up at Data Terminal Systems (point-of-sale terminals) in Maynard (home
of DEC, coincidently). Them thar new fangled cash registers used the PPS-4 chip
set. Very sexy. Much mo' better than a mini. :-)
|
Yep. I was with OmniComp (a start-up), acquired by GenRad, from
1977-1987.
Startled the hell out of me to have them start sending a monthly
pension payment when I turned 65... I didn't even know I was entitled
;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chris
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
Kryten wrote:
| Quote: | I can see HP's point in that if someone puts poor-quality scans of
their
manuals up, some people might think it reflects HP quality in
documentation.
I'd argue anyone smart enough to need and buy HP kit would not blame
HP/Ag.
HP made a good name for good kit that did a good job and price took
second
place.
They were an American icon, like Harley Davison or Maglite or
Leatherman.
Then some pointy haired bunch threw away the old name, diversified
into new
areas, and promptly turned a steady business into instability.
Hmph.
Perhaps one could ask HP to provide the better versions, maybe donate
mint
condition manuals for scanning or even original files.
It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests
On one hand they pressure people to buy new products by doing so, but
as a
customer I'd be put off buying kit from a company that was so petty
as to
begrudge manuals to a old customers.
Making manuals free in electronic form reduces the waste of paper and
office
space, which helps everyone.
|
I'd like to be a bit of a contrarian here for once.
<rant>
The instrument manual the OP is seeking is available from several
sources. It's a little pricey, but is still a good value, and only a
small fraction of the price of a reconditioned HP 5370B.
Much of the value of an instrument is contained in its usability and
serviceability. A lot of the effort that goes into making a good
instrument _should_ be spent on the operating and service manuals. To
my experience, HP/Agilent has _always_ produced easily readable,
logically written manuals that are eminently helpful in using the
instrument.
An important point that's being neglected here is that these manuals
are intellectual property which has been copyrighted to make sure the
fruits of that work goes to the owners. This forum has many
well-respected engineers who depend, at least in part, on the residual
value of the intellectual property they have created in order to make a
living, through patents, non-disclosure agreements, and copyrights,
allowing them to sell the same art to more than one customer. I don't
believe they would be happy if the owners of the fruits of their labor
decided to bypass those patents and non-disclosure agreements in order
to swipe some of that value for themselves.
If a certain universally respected textbook of Electronics Engineering
went out of print (may that day never arrive) but was still under
copyright (under current law there will be many years to go), a teacher
who owned one text wouldn't have the right to make copies and sell them
to students. Copyright laws still apply. And whether that certain
universally respected textbook of Electronics Engineering was out of
print or not wouldn't have anything to do with implied warranties of
merchantability. The book would still have the same value.
Some thought should be given to the perceived value of making a really
excellent manual to the manufacturer as well. I'm sure one of the
reasons the engineers at HP were allowed by the bean counters to spend
so much time making top quality manuals was the expected return for
selling copies of those manuals after the sale. I've seen CDs for sale
which have scans of HP/Agilent instruments which are currently
supported or even in production, as well as the obsolete ones. If the
rules are changed to permit copying of manuals, the MBAs will have
another idiotic justification to cut the labor hours spent on making
the manual. I want and need good documentation when I specify an
instrument, so I can get the quality results I want and get the full
value of the meter. If everyone is making poor quality, minimalist
manuals (and those manufacturers know who they are -- so do we), none
of the instrument buyers are going to be happy.
Look at it this way. Let's assume the authors of that universally
respected textbook of Electronics Engineering knew that within several
years of publishing the 2nd edition, everyone would be using Xeroxes of
their text. Would they have taken the time to make the second edition
as great as it is? Or support it in s.e.d.? Would it have remained in
print as long as it has? And would they have enough motivation to
publish a 3rd edition (please -- just give me 30 seconds to cut the
check!).
Agilent has a webpage which recommends a number of resellers of
manuals, several of which have the one the OP is talking about. At
some time, Agilent may also be willing to look at selling the
documentation for obsolete and unsupported instruments in electronic
form, once good digital protection is available which prevents
unauthorized copying. When that happens, A of E will undoubtedly also
be in digital form, too. But either way, the intellectual property
belongs to the author, and should be respected whether the authors are
respected professors or a corporation.
Sorry for the loss of self-control. I've got my asbestos suit on --
let the flames begin.
</rant>
Chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Keith Williams
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
|
|
In article <as6i61lkq9vpra45mdobgmoo196tdlt1qb@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
| Quote: | On 22 Apr 2005 04:05:20 -0700, Winfield Hill
hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote:
Stepan, steevjanpan@hotmail.com wrote...
HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:
http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf
I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.
That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.
Shakespeare was correct ;-)
But I've had a bias against hp equipment for at least 30 years... a
whole lot of it was crap or became crap within one year. When I ran
the Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad I forbade the purchase of
hp 'scopes.
|
HP 'scopes were the pits, but I liked their multimeters (the 3456A in
particular), pulse generators, and logic analyzers (Tek/HP 50-50 split
here). I don't remember seeing an HP 'scope in any lab around. Come
to think of it my EMI spectrum analyzer (does that count as a 'scope?)
was HP. I went HP there because the Tek didn't go nearly high enough.
--
Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in