| Author |
Message |
Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su
Guest
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 Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:35 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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"Winfield Hill" <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote in
message news:d4alpg01vk5@drn.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | Stepan, steevjanpan@hotmail.com wrote...
HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:
http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf
I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.
That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.
|
Agreed. What is it about lawyers? These land sharks have this
mentality that if their corporation doesn't say NO to absolutely
everything - that if even one teeny-weeny yes gets out, that sheer
pandemonium will result.
As a result, counsel recommends (and usually gets their way) that any -
even the smallest - violation be immediately stopped. One example.
http://www.elvislounge.com/barrykoltnow.html It's truly shameful.
Another point. Because of corporate bullying of copyright infringement,
the price of manual often exceeds the price of the used equipment it
belongs to. So sellers buy scrap not for the value of the equipment,
but for the manuals they contain.
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Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:35 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
news:tzVv0dDykPaCFwUi@jmwa.demon.co.uk...
| Quote: | I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote (in
d4alpg01vk5@drn.newsguy.com>) about 'Copyright on HP service
manuals',
on Fri, 22 Apr 2005:
That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent.
The crux is whether indeed Agilent have been habitually refusing, or
will refuse, to supply. The letter by itself is unobjectionable;
someone
else should not be selling (or even providing free) a copyrighted
work.
For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.
All the above is totally pertinent IFFI Agilent refuse to supply.
|
One thought. Many of the test equipment (and manuals) were duplicated
for the miltary. One off the top of my head is the AN/USM-81 which was
the same as the Tek 541 'scope, IIRC. This may not be copyrighted, or
may have some other way of getting around the copyright laws. And many
schools, such as the military schools, published schematics to use for
training.
Also, I'm sure that some other countries had something similar, such as
when NATO or other int'l org published an equipment manual in a foreign
language. Hey, a schematic is a schematic, even if it's in French,
right? ;-))
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Chris
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:35 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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Winfield Hill wrote:
| Quote: | Chris wrote...
I feel the IP is embedded in the instrument, not the manual. Thus
the manual provides a way to make use of the IP you've bought and
paid for in the instrument. It's the old instruments HP / Agilent
no longer supports that we're talking about here. The simple fact
is that there are *far* more instruments out there, than original
manuals, because when one goes surplus the company's file drawers
of manuals tend to get thrown away or otherwise lost, while the old
instrument exchanges hands a few times and finds a new home.
Plus there are manuals that disappear for who knows what reason.
The manuals for some HP equipment I purchased new when I came to the
Institute 17 years ago somehow no longer exists at the Institute.
Did a postdoc carry it off with him in his files when he left? Did
it get thrown out by mistake? Who can say, but it's gone. And now
a copy is not available from Agilent, the product line having been
discontinued long ago... So I do rely on others who are willing to
make a copy to keep the IP in my instrument useful.
--
Thanks,
- Win
|
Thanks for taking the time to respond, Mr. Hill. I stand corrected --
there are far more "orphaned" old HP instruments out there than
original manuals. Your point is valid.
Maintaining an instrument document control system is relatively easy in
a manufacturing facility with a limited number of engineering
personnel. It's certainly much more difficult in an academic
environment with dozens or even hundreds of students who all want
access to the instruments and their manuals, and don't have enough
experience with instruments to make educated guesses about how they
work.
Agilent and other manufacturers might be inclined to cut academic
institutions some slack as far as making copies of manuals for internal
use. I'm sure they want their meters to be specified by as many future
engineers and professors as possible. Considering your special
requirements, they may be inclined to allow a limited waiver in your
case.
People who need the OP/SV manuals will generally get them, whether
through purchasing a used manual, copying one from someone else, or
another means. The market, like life, usually finds a way. Although I
can understand why, I don't think not selling new manuals helps Agilent
get more business. They may wake up some day and farm out their
obsolete instrument documentation orders to either a book on demand or
lawyer's/barrister's Xeroxing firm. They could provide ring- or
comb-bound copies of these operating and service manuals with only an
additional day or two on turnaround compared to keeping thousands of
cubic meters of printed manuals on the shelf in stock. I know of
several automation machinery manufacturers that do just this with their
prints and manuals very profitably. Until then, Agilent is
perpetuating a bad setup, and annoying loyal customers.
I guess I'll keep doing it my way, though. If one is willing to pay,
there isn't much of a shortage of manuals now on most common older
"orphaned" HP instruments these days. (Of course, if more people felt
the way I did, the limited supply would undoubtedly dry up, as you
suggested.) I agree that the value of the instrument is inherent in
the instrument itself, not the manual. But just the fact that we're
having this conversation indicates the documentation is of value,
although of another kind. It allows me to utilize the investment in
the instrument. And I find that value sufficient that, if I cut a CER
for a used/reconditioned "orphaned" HP instrument, I'll make sure to
include the purchase price of a legal copy of the manual from
ManualsPlus or another of the instrument documentation resellers along
with it. I'm saving more than enough by buying used to afford a little
more for the docs. As a bonus, I can get it FedExed so it arrives
before the instrument, and I will have read it and be just about ready
to roll when the box arrives.
Thanks again (and the check is still ready to be signed ;-)
Chris
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Eric Smith
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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snovotill@hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | It just occured to me that I used to do a nifty thing to protect my
most valuable data from single byte corruption as can be caused by
oxidized memory DIM contacts etc. I would burn the data to a RAW
CDROM image file which includes error correction and just save it to
my hard drive. Once I did that I could open up the CD image in a hex
editor and pepper it full of crap, but then when I would mount it the
error correction would keep it perfectly readable! Pretty cool.
|
Unfortunately that won't really work.
A CD-ROM image is normally an ISO 9660 image, which doesn't contain
the error correction codes. It only has the 2048-byte data payload of
each sector.
Some software will let you generate a "raw" image (2352 byte sectors
rather than 2048). This does contain the top level of the error
correction codes. But it doesn't have the bottom two layers, or the
interleaving, so by itself it doesn't gain much.
See "The Art of Digital Audio" by Watkinson or "Principles of Digital
Audio" by Pohlman for details of the CD-Audio format (Red Book), or
buy a copy of ISO 60908.
The CD-ROM format is layered on top of the CD-Audio format, as documented
in the Yellow Book. ECMA 130 is equivalent to the relevant portion of
the Yellow Book, and a PDF file can be downloaded at no charge:
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-130.htm
If you're worried about data corruption, you are best off keeping multiple
copies of your data, preferrably on separate mediums. And it probably is
worthwhile to either put it in ZIP files (which store a CRC of the file
to detect corruption), or to store an MD5SUM of the file on the same medium.
Eric |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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I read in sci.electronics.design that snovotill@hotmail.com wrote (in
<qdrj619s8orfhgre9a13d8ce0unjkqhdev@4ax.com>) about 'Copyright on HP
service manuals', on Sat, 23 Apr 2005:
| Quote: | It's interesting to note how long ago the DNA of dinasours appeared on
earth, in comparison to the half-life of digitally preserved data.
|
Why stop a dinosaurs, 65 million years ago? The oldest DNA still
identifiable in living creatures ('cyanobacteria') is about 3.8 billion
years old.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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I read in sci.electronics.design that Robert Baer
<robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote (in
<Y6nae.10918$An2.2268@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>) about
'Copyright on HP service manuals', on Sat, 23 Apr 2005:
| Quote: | On one HP gear that i had bought, i had to settle for the manual
(from HP) in the form of microfiche; the equipment was long
discontinued, and that was all they had.
The quality of the copy was excellent.
|
But they vary a lot. When British Standards were available in public
libraries on microfiche, some were OK and others almost unreadable. One
man's fiche is another man's poisson.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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"Chris" <cfoley1064@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114233409.130317.72040@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Winfield Hill wrote:
Chris wrote...
I feel the IP is embedded in the instrument, not the manual. Thus
the manual provides a way to make use of the IP you've bought and
paid for in the instrument. It's the old instruments HP / Agilent
no longer supports that we're talking about here. The simple fact
is that there are *far* more instruments out there, than original
manuals, because when one goes surplus the company's file drawers
of manuals tend to get thrown away or otherwise lost, while the old
instrument exchanges hands a few times and finds a new home.
Plus there are manuals that disappear for who knows what reason.
The manuals for some HP equipment I purchased new when I came to
the
Institute 17 years ago somehow no longer exists at the Institute.
Did a postdoc carry it off with him in his files when he left? Did
it get thrown out by mistake? Who can say, but it's gone. And now
a copy is not available from Agilent, the product line having been
discontinued long ago... So I do rely on others who are willing to
make a copy to keep the IP in my instrument useful.
--
Thanks,
- Win
Thanks for taking the time to respond, Mr. Hill. I stand corrected --
there are far more "orphaned" old HP instruments out there than
original manuals. Your point is valid.
Maintaining an instrument document control system is relatively easy
in
a manufacturing facility with a limited number of engineering
personnel. It's certainly much more difficult in an academic
environment with dozens or even hundreds of students who all want
access to the instruments and their manuals, and don't have enough
experience with instruments to make educated guesses about how they
work.
|
That doesn't make sense. All the department has to do is hand over the
manuals to the library (this _is_ in an academic emvironment!) and let
them put the manuals in Reserve, where they can be checked out for a
very limited amount of time, say two hours, and not be taken from the
facility. The student can then peruse, or even copy them if he has a
pocketful of dimes. At least this is how we do it at the college where
I work. Actually, the student can now buy credits on a card to put in
the copier, so he doesn't even need coins to make copies. One can see
this big warning sign above the copier with legalese about copyright
restrictions etc. Mostly ignored. :-P
[snip]
| Quote: | I agree that the value of the instrument is inherent in
the instrument itself, not the manual. But just the fact that we're
having this conversation indicates the documentation is of value,
although of another kind. It allows me to utilize the investment in
the instrument.
|
Everyone, including the legal system, should view certain types of
manuals as different than other IP. In the case of an instruction
manual, this is is directly related to the instrument, and has no real
use or value on its own. Therefor the owner of an instrument should
have the right to own this manual, no matter where or how it was
obtained. I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker should
be obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but the
makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.
OTOH the repair, service, maintenance manuals are another case, and
since they might reveal something about the instrument that's not
notmally available to the owner, the owner wouldn't have any right to
these manuals.
[snip]
| Quote: | Thanks again (and the check is still ready to be signed ;-)
Chris
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Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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<snovotill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qdrj619s8orfhgre9a13d8ce0unjkqhdev@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:34:35 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:
One thought. Many of the test equipment (and manuals) were
duplicated
for the miltary. One off the top of my head is the AN/USM-81 which
was
the same as the Tek 541 'scope, IIRC. This may not be copyrighted,
or
may have some other way of getting around the copyright laws. And
many
schools, such as the military schools, published schematics to use
for
training.
Jeepers, I wish those military manuals were better. I downloaded a few
of them from https://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/online.htm and although
they were usefull, they certainly were not up to par when compared to
the real thing. Often unreadable schematics and missing vital info.
|
Well, the 'unreadable' and 'missing' sound to me like that's a copying
or scanning problem, not the fault of the manual itself.
Generally, when I was in the army, the manuals were broken down into 5
levels.
1 - operation (like how to drive a car)
2 - maintenance (like how to change the oil, add water to radiator,
etc.)
3 - service (like tires, batteries, etc.)
4 - field repair (like fixing the starter or the brakes)
5 - depot repair (like rebuilding the engine)
Those 5 "echelons" are only a rough idea of how the manuals were
arranged. Some military manuals were combined, such as a "-35" manual
included the 3rd thru 5th echelon - basically everything about service
and repair. A "-15" manual would be all of the above.
You may have to get 2 or more military manuals to get all the info that
might be in a regular equipment manual from the manufacturer.
| Quote: | If anyone has found a better place to download this stuff then I'd
love to see a follow up post about it.
|
Well, if you are in the military, I would imagine that all of that is
now online and available to the authorized people.
| Quote: | On a side note, it's my experience that there are not many folks out
there who really know how to maintain electronic records without
corruption and loss for more than a few years. I've seen data get
corrupt because folks do silly things like copy large repositories of
data from one place to another and then neglect to do a binary
compare, run disk defrag software against large drives containing
valuable data on machines with crappy systemic bit-error-rates,
transfer gigabytes of data on computers without ECC memory or
without UPS protection, no backup strategies or crappy media or
unmaintained tape drives. Failure to check C1/C2 error rates on
freshly burned CDROMS, and on and on. Many perils.
|
Welcome to the Real World. Bugs eat papers, manuals and books. Acid in
the paper makes it turn brittle and brown after a few decades, making it
nearly useless. But these problems are not related to the topic were
discussing. However the bookworms should be very concerned about the
copyright restrictions because they are severely restricting their food
source! ;-)
[snip]
> Stepan |
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Winfield Hill
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote...
| Quote: |
Everyone, including the legal system, should view certain types of
manuals as different than other IP. In the case of an instruction
manual, this is is directly related to the instrument, and has no real
use or value on its own. Therefor the owner of an instrument should
have the right to own this manual, no matter where or how it was
obtained. I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker should
be obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but
the makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.
|
Hear! Hear!
| Quote: | OTOH the repair, service, maintenance manuals are another case, and
since they might reveal something about the instrument that's not
notmally available to the owner, the owner wouldn't have any right
to these manuals.
|
Naturally I disagree: Owners of hardware should be able to get the
service manuals for their purchased equipment. Some sellers want
to keep the repair profits for themselves, but in my opinion this
is unwise. OK, we'll leave that point. However, surely you agree
that if the manufacturer made detailed service manuals available
at the time of original sale, as HP did, the associated IP should
be treated the same as the instruction manual, per your statement.
| Quote: | Thanks again (and the check is still ready to be signed ;-)
|
Which check is that?
--
Thanks,
- Win |
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Winfield Hill
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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John Woodgate wrote...
| Quote: |
One man's fiche is another man's poisson.
|
http://www.poissonrouge.com/toys/index.htm
--
Thanks,
- Win |
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Rich Grise
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:50:26 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark
Remover" wrote:
| Quote: | "Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
[snip]
But I've had a bias against hp equipment for at least 30 years... a
whole lot of it was crap or became crap within one year. When I ran the
Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad I forbade the purchase of hp
'scopes.
But their scopes always took a back seat to Tek, so if they didn't want to
flush money down the toilet, they would not have bothered to invest the
money to make and sell a scope that was competetive with Tek.
However I used a HP 1741 back in '79, and I thought it was a solid scope.
It was a blessing after rubbing my fingers raw from turning the timebase
and other knobs 100's of times a day on a Tek toob scope. The HP probably
saved the company tons of money on electric and air conditioning costs by
getting rid of those old Tek toob scopes, which used a half a kilowatt of
power all day long.
|
HP dumped their REALLY crap scopes on the military. The worst scope I
ever tried to use was an HP in a waterproof AGE[1] box. Not only did it
have the legendary "can't trigger" problem that's endemic to HP scopes,
but the waterproof knobs gave new meaning to the term "backlash."
But then again, the only thing I could honestly testify to re HP test
equipment is they never got the triggering as good as Tek. All of their
other stuff was, as we all know, essentially perfect.
Cheers!
Rich
[1] Aerospace Ground Equipment |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:03:10 -0400, the renowned "mc"
<mc_no_spam@uga.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests,
Well said!
Does Agilent actually make money selling these old manuals? No? They
probably have always lost money selling manuals. Accordingly, they should
be glad that somebody else wants to do it for them!
Also, their copyright might be hard to enforce if they no longer sell the
manuals themselves. No loss of market; no harm; nothing to sue for.
|
I think you underestimate the legal mind. One could argue that the
copyright infringement unnaturally prolongs the useful life of
unsupported HP/Agilent instruments, thus reducing the overall market
for new instruments. It's perhaps possible to dig up figures that
would support a cost to Agilent of x% of a new instrument for every
instance of infringement.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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"Rich Grise" <richgrise@example.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.23.15.30.45.636041@example.net...
| Quote: | On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:50:26 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the
Dark
Remover" wrote:
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
[snip]
But I've had a bias against hp equipment for at least 30 years... a
whole lot of it was crap or became crap within one year. When I
ran the
Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad I forbade the purchase of
hp
'scopes.
But their scopes always took a back seat to Tek, so if they didn't
want to
flush money down the toilet, they would not have bothered to invest
the
money to make and sell a scope that was competetive with Tek.
However I used a HP 1741 back in '79, and I thought it was a solid
scope.
It was a blessing after rubbing my fingers raw from turning the
timebase
and other knobs 100's of times a day on a Tek toob scope. The HP
probably
saved the company tons of money on electric and air conditioning
costs by
getting rid of those old Tek toob scopes, which used a half a
kilowatt of
power all day long.
HP dumped their REALLY crap scopes on the military. The worst scope I
ever tried to use was an HP in a waterproof AGE[1] box. Not only did
it
have the legendary "can't trigger" problem that's endemic to HP
scopes,
but the waterproof knobs gave new meaning to the term "backlash."
But then again, the only thing I could honestly testify to re HP test
equipment is they never got the triggering as good as Tek. All of
their
other stuff was, as we all know, essentially perfect.
|
Aw, c'mon, Rich! We all know that perfect is a straight wire with gain,
with a bandwidth from DC to daylight. And we all know that even HP
couldn't do that. Nice try.
| Quote: | Cheers!
Rich
[1] Aerospace Ground Equipment |
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Chris
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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Winfield Hill wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: | Thanks again (and the check is still ready to be signed ;-)
Which check is that?
--
Thanks,
- Win
|
The check to purchase the third edition of a "certain universally
respected textbook of Electronics Engineering" mentioned above, of
course.
By the way, I bought the second edition used. I'd consider it an honor
to be able to cut a check for a new copy of the 3rd edition, so the
authors could directly see the benefit.
In business, the best way to say "thanks for the help" is in cash.
Which is kind of the point of this whole discussion, I suppose.
Thanks (of the non-monetary variety this time, I'm afraid)
Chris |
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:23 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:02:37 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | _If_ Agilent was closing them off from a solution, perhaps you'd have
a point. However, I understand that Agilent has licensed the
reproduction and sale of manuals and makes reference to those vendors
in their (Agilent's) web site, so that's hardly what I'd call "closing
them off from a solution".
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Have they licensed reproduction of manuals? All the ones listed seem
to be the usual used manual brokers.
John |
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