| Author |
Message |
John Larkin
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:35:44 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
<rtp@example.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:08:49 -0500, Leonard Martin wrote:
This kind of stuff is part of a trend that's been going on, to my
amazement, for a couple of decades now. It might be summed up as
"Business is more important than anything. The market is God. Whatever's
good for either is great, and the devil take the rest!" Under this
regime each new enormity perpetrated by some business, like this one by
Aligent (or the copyright extension that business got away with a while
ago) first causes a bit of squirming on the part of the victims, but
then other virtuous souls remind them of the three divine maxims set out
above, and everyone then naturally knuckles under.
How did a once-free, and in fact instinctively rebellious, people come
to this?
"The shadow of Love is Power. Love first gave much of his Power to
Lucifer. And then over time he denied the rest of his Power, handing it
to Ahriman.
"Love, real Love feels much better than Power... yet most humans have
chosen to worship the god of Power, not the God of Love. Praised from the
pulpits and beseeched in the deepest prayers for relief from pain and
oppression, the god of Power has been very popular.
"Power has constantly affirmed that he and only he is God. And he has
been very successful at this... many beings have never even known that
the God of Love exists."
- Heart: http://www.godchannel.com/lovepower.html
But I have it on Good Authority that this is changing, even as we speak.
|
You really mean "even as we cut and paste."
John
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:24:17 +0100, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:
| Quote: | I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote (in
3sp171tvbt2i4h28stjl0a09vfsscp7bqj@4ax.com>) about 'Copyright on HP
service manuals', on Thu, 28 Apr 2005:
"I am the President of the United States of America, and I will not eat
broccoli."
Unlike Emperor Franz Ferdinand, 'I am the Emperor and I want
DUMPLINGS!'.
GB probably remembers his childhood aversion. To me, it taste quite
different now, 60 years later. And the costly 'purple sprouting' version
is even (much) better, whereas I couldn't stand it at 8 years of age.
Mind you, I steam it for 8 minutes or microwave with water for 2 - 3
minutes, whereas my mother used to boil it for 15 minutes, and that
makes quite a lot of difference.
|
Sometimes we get (at restaurants) the Italian broccolinni stuff or
whatever; it's small, bitter, and awful.
I thing there's been a lot of selective breeding going on lately [1].
The last batch we had at home was *sweet*.
John
[1] riffs are obvious. Go for it. |
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Dave Platt
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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In article <QZHAe5WhAQcCFwR+@jmwa.demon.co.uk>,
John Woodgate <noone@yuk.yuk> wrote:
| Quote: | GB probably remembers his childhood aversion. To me, it taste quite
different now, 60 years later. And the costly 'purple sprouting' version
is even (much) better, whereas I couldn't stand it at 8 years of age.
Mind you, I steam it for 8 minutes or microwave with water for 2 - 3
minutes, whereas my mother used to boil it for 15 minutes, and that
makes quite a lot of difference.
|
Bingo! I learned to hate most vegetables, early on, due to the way
they were cooked... boiled until limp and tasteless, reduced to a
nondescript shade of greenish-brown.
I still hate 'em when they're prepared in that fashion. Don't even
get me started on one of the greatest culinary crimes ever invented:
canned green peas.
On the other hand, the very same vegetables, prepared as John
suggests, or briefly stir-fried with a drop of good oil and a smidge
of garlic, are one of nature's perfect foods... yummy!
Some of us learn the benefits of new approaches as we grow older. It
sounds as if GHB didn't. His loss.
--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
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Chris
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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Leonard Martin wrote:
| Quote: | Well, how nice for you that you function in a world where $75 for a
manual is small change! There are lots of us hobbyists out here who
like
to experiment with electronics but who might find that to be their
"mad"
money for a month. Somehow, as one of them, I'm not convinced by your
"all us well-off businessmen should be good t each other" argument.
This kind of stuff is part of a trend that's been going on, to my
amazement, for a couple of decades now. It might be summed up as
"Business is more important than anything. The market is God.
Whatever's
good for either is great, and the devil take the rest!" Under this
regime each new enormity perpetrated by some business, like this one
by
Aligent (or the copyright extension that business got away with a
while
ago) first causes a bit of squirming on the part of the victims, but
then other virtuous souls remind them of the three divine maxims set
out
above, and everyone then naturally knuckles under.
How did a once-free, and in fact instinctively rebellious, people
come
to this?
Leonard
--
"Everything that rises must converge"
--Flannery O'Connor
|
As to your ad hominem argument about well-off businessmen all watching
each others' backs, I showed that to the War Department, and she got a
good laugh out of that one. A slightly bitter laugh, but a good one.
I expect to be called "The Well-Off Businessman" or "Bourgeoise
Capitalist" or "Moneybags Industrialist" for at least several days.
But as a matter of fact, most of the manuals I've purchased over the
years have been for employers or customers. If you compare the cost of
a new lab instrument to a used/reconditioned one, $25 to $75 is small
change. They're still way ahead. As to my own few lab quality
instruments, if I can't afford the manual I need, I can't afford the
instrument.
It's not an issue of being an acolyte of the neo-liberal economic
church of Milton Friedman and his divine maxims. It's an issue of
fairness, which usually comes from the other side of the
political/economic aisle, as do I. And it's an issue of encouraging
creativity and rewarding the creators of intellectual property for
their work. Copyright is a very American idea. Before the formation
of the United States, the King of England had the right to award
monopolies on the publication of books. This monopoly was sometimes
used to reward cronies or punish the creators of the IP by burying the
book. Look at any American History survey course textbook, and Article
I, Section 8 of our constitution, as well as the original Copyright Act
of 1790.
It's kind of funny, really. Here's a newsgroup for electronics design.
Contributors include researchers, authors, teachers and professors,
chip designers, and many really good electronic engineers who make
original contributions to the field and write for everyone's benefit in
this newsgroup, trade journals and their websites. (I don't belong in
their league. For the most part, I just try to stay out of their way
and answer simple, obvious questions so they won't have to, along with
a suggestion to post to s.e.b. next time.) I'm just happy to read
their conversations and learn from them. But one thing they all have
in common is creating intellectual property for a living. One would
think they would be willing to go to the wall for IP rights in general.
Or possibly they're just being a little short-sighted.
These are not good times for U.S. engineers in general, particularly in
manufacturing. There seems to be a disconnect in our country between
the value of a thing which is made and the value of the intelligence
behind it. Managers of manufacturing companies feel they can do it
with fewer engineers, and then are surprised when their product line
gets stale, customers complain they can't get support with their
product and will buy something else next time, disastrous manufacturing
glitches happen on the floor -- things don't work right and nobody
knows why.
In my career, I've seen good engineers creating IP and increasing the
value of the companies they worked for, far in excess of whatever
they're paid (sometimes the equivalent of years salary on one project),
then being thrown away like used coffee grounds. The current crop of
tender, green MBAs could have a notion to shoot the company in the foot
by reducing "indirect labor and overhead costs". Management may decide
they can hire a fresh fish out of school or a foreign visa applicant
for a lot less money. They might even just let an engineer go if he
gets sick. In short, they really don't value IP because they don't
value the creators of IP.
TAANSTAAFL means There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (Robert A.
Heinlein, "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", one of the icons of my
misspent youth). That's been used as a motto of the Scaife, Coors and
Murdoch neoliberals at the Heritage Foundation, American Enterprise
Institute and Fox as they try to march the United States back to the
Gilded Age of the 1890s. I'm afraid Heinlein even used it himself that
way. But before the politics and the macroeconomics comes the basic
issue of paying for value received and doing what's fair. If you don't
pay an engineer for the value received from his IP he's trying to sell,
he'll stop making IP and do something profitable to support his family.
If you don't pay for the value of IP received from a coprporation, the
people whose job is making the IP will not be profitable to employ, and
will be let go. Fewer working engineers, less creativity and less IP
will mean a declining manufacturing economy. And as things go down the
drain and there are no more manufacturing jobs available, people will
just console themselves with anti-intellectual, anti-science beliefs,
following people like Ron Grossi and staring at Fox. They'll let other
countries take the lead, and they'll call it God's just punishment on a
sinful society.
So much for the big picture. I treat IP as always having value because
it does. I do it out of respect to the creators, and to maintain the
value of the IP. I also do it in order to keep from devaluing IP in
general.
Agilent isn't running around with platoons of armed library police, and
they definitely aren't buying up old manuals to keep 'em out of your
hands. I have never known of anybody who quietly copied a manual for
personal use who was busted by the legal department at HP or any
instrument manufacturer. I don't believe they really care about
manuals for orphaned instruments, except that there are several
long-term consequences to not making pro forma efforts to defend their
IP from obvious attempts to devalue it (like putting scans on the net).
Actually, I'm sure they look on this whole issue as a money and good
will loser and a general PITA. They see you acting like since it's
their fault they made these great, reliable instruments 25 years ago
that still work great today, they should be punished for it. I get the
feeling they already are, and I'm personally afraid they might be
thinking about learning from their "mistakes".
And as for me, I'll "pay for my pleasures", and have my employers and
customers pay for theirs, not so much because I can afford to light my
cigars with $100 bills as that's just the right way to do it. You
know, the right thing to do? Like, ethics and honesty and all that? I
know it seems obsolete in these times, but some of us (at least as many
Blue as Red) still feel that way.
Good luck
Chris |
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rex
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:17:07 +0100, Dave <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Dave wrote:
I don't have any HP user or service manuals, but I suspect they are
copyrighted. Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to copy an HP
manual and put it on the web.
I asked Agilent as was refused permission to put copies on the web.
BUT they said they can grant me permission to distribute (charging if I
wish) copies of manuals for obsolete equipment on CD or paper - but not
the web.
I was sent a short half-page letter, asked to fill it in, sign it, send
it back and are awaiting confirmation of permission by email.
So it is not as bad as it seems.
So anyone selling CDs on eBay can do it legally if they ask permission
first - I doubt many do.
|
Seems like an idiotic or Ludite philosophy to me. So we can share old
manuals, but only if we ask permission and then waste time and physical
resources in the process.
I can buy most software now with a choice of waiting for a physical copy
(which is usually down-level from current) or downloading the package
from the web. Works to the advantage of me and the seller.
Sure would be nice if Agilent adopted the Tek point of view on this. |
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mc
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:06 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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How does free distribution of *obsolete* manuals work against "encouraging
creativity"?
We are not attacking the concept of copyright. Many of us are saying HP
would benefit from allowing free redistribution on the Web of old manuals
for equipment that they no longer sell. |
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Winfield Hill
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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Winfield Hill wrote...
There's good news from BAMA News, http://bama.sbc.edu/news.htm
"HP Manuals Will Return to BAMA. A license has been granted
by Agilent to allow BAMA to carry HP manuals. The HP page will
need to be recreated and the files returned to the server. This
will take a while, but they will be back! (April 28, 2005)"
--
Thanks,
- Win |
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Yzordderrex
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:13 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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Looks like HP has agreed to allow BAMA to publish. A well coined
letter to Agilent counsul was the key to open this door. Thanks to all
involved with getting this important job done. We all love surplus HP
gear!
regards
N9NEO
http://amfone.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4565 |
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:18 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On 29 Apr 2005 11:49:51 -0700, Winfield Hill
<hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote:
| Quote: | Winfield Hill wrote...
Stepan, steevjanpan@hotmail.com wrote...
HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:
http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf
I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.
There's good news from BAMA News, http://bama.sbc.edu/news.htm
"HP Manuals Will Return to BAMA. A license has been granted
by Agilent to allow BAMA to carry HP manuals. The HP page will
need to be recreated and the files returned to the server. This
will take a while, but they will be back! (April 28, 2005)"
|
We should download them all and burn CDs before they change their
minds!
What I really want are the schematics for the HP9100 desktop
calculator, ca 1965. I have two, both dead, and it's sad that they
won't allow anybody to get the info needed to restore these classics.
http://www.classiccmp.org/calcmuseum/HP9100.htm
http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/hp9100_txt.html
http://www.hpmuseum.org/tech9100.htm
It's amazing that HP actually reused the 9100 model number for some
poorly-reviewed inkjet printer/fax thing.
John |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:35 am Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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In sci.electronics.repair Dave <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported.
|
A few observations:
- If the manual is separate from the instrument, it will get separated
from the equipment and lost. Doesn't matter if it's on paper, a CD,
a website, or whatever.
- In these latter days, memory is cheaper than dirt. Especially if
it's ROM.
- Small flash-memory drives with a USB connector are rather ubitiquous.
So... why not store the manuals INSIDE the instruments, and not have
this problem again?
Have a USB port somewhere on the instrument. Plug in a flash drive,
push a button, and get a .txt or .pdf dumped to the flash drive. A
fancy instrument could use a menu selection to dump a nice PDF from
a big ROM; an inexpensive one could use a little recessed switch on
the back panel to bit-bang a text file out the USB port with an 8051
or something. Perhaps even a serial port doing an ASCII (or Kermit
or similar) transfer for a really low-dollar solution. Instruments
fancy enough to have their own Ethernet / Web server could simply
serve documents through that interface. If they just have Ethernet
and TCP/IP, maybe a "magic packet" to a well-known port (17?) on a
non-routable IP address could trigger a manual dump via FTP.
The storage inside the instrument would need to be in ROM, or else it
will eventually get erased. If the instrument takes firmware updates,
there should be a mechanism for the updates to include addenda pages
in the manual dump, but the updates shouldn't be able to overwrite the
original manual.
This won't do a thing for all those instruments floating around out
there now. (Or maybe this has already been thought of and implemented;
I don't get to buy much brand multi-kilodollar test equipment at work.)
But if the market could agree on some kind of standard, and get the
vendors to accept it, the "missing manual" problem could be reduced
a great deal.
Matt Roberds |
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:07:19 GMT, mroberds@worldnet.att.net wrote:
| Quote: | In sci.electronics.repair Dave <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote:
The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported.
A few observations:
- If the manual is separate from the instrument, it will get separated
from the equipment and lost. Doesn't matter if it's on paper, a CD,
a website, or whatever.
- In these latter days, memory is cheaper than dirt. Especially if
it's ROM.
- Small flash-memory drives with a USB connector are rather ubitiquous.
So... why not store the manuals INSIDE the instruments, and not have
this problem again?
Have a USB port somewhere on the instrument. Plug in a flash drive,
push a button, and get a .txt or .pdf dumped to the flash drive. A
fancy instrument could use a menu selection to dump a nice PDF from
a big ROM; an inexpensive one could use a little recessed switch on
the back panel to bit-bang a text file out the USB port with an 8051
or something. Perhaps even a serial port doing an ASCII (or Kermit
or similar) transfer for a really low-dollar solution. Instruments
fancy enough to have their own Ethernet / Web server could simply
serve documents through that interface. If they just have Ethernet
and TCP/IP, maybe a "magic packet" to a well-known port (17?) on a
non-routable IP address could trigger a manual dump via FTP.
The storage inside the instrument would need to be in ROM, or else it
will eventually get erased. If the instrument takes firmware updates,
there should be a mechanism for the updates to include addenda pages
in the manual dump, but the updates shouldn't be able to overwrite the
original manual.
This won't do a thing for all those instruments floating around out
there now. (Or maybe this has already been thought of and implemented;
I don't get to buy much brand multi-kilodollar test equipment at work.)
But if the market could agree on some kind of standard, and get the
vendors to accept it, the "missing manual" problem could be reduced
a great deal.
|
We recently introduced a benchtop instrument that has a 'help' key on
the front panel.
http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P400DS.html
It's scrolled with the spinner knob. The first thing you see is an
introduction to how to use help, and how to get out. Then there's a
table of contents. Both the toc and the main text include hyperjumps
(push the spinner) or you can hit any of the other buttons on the
front panel to jump to the specific section that's relevant.
I wrote a lot of the help text. It was interesting to try to write
clear and coherent stuff that looks good on a 20-character-wide
display... lots of synonym searching and syntax shuffling was
involved. Lots.
Many high-end instruments now have a VGA-quality display and have
serious help facilities; you could put the real manual into something
like that.
Good idea about a web site inside the instrument; we'll have to try
that some day.
John |
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keith
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:06:45 -0400, mc wrote:
| Quote: | How does free distribution of *obsolete* manuals work against "encouraging
creativity"?
We are not attacking the concept of copyright. Many of us are saying HP
would benefit from allowing free redistribution on the Web of old manuals
for equipment that they no longer sell.
|
In fact you are attacking the concept of copyright. Aligent owns the
copyright and has the last say. It seems that they _have_ reversed their
position, so maybe your whining did help. ;-)
--
Keith |
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Rich Grise
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:07:19 +0000, mroberds wrote:
| Quote: | In sci.electronics.repair Dave <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote:
The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported.
A few observations:
- If the manual is separate from the instrument, it will get separated
from the equipment and lost. Doesn't matter if it's on paper, a CD,
a website, or whatever.
- In these latter days, memory is cheaper than dirt. Especially if
it's ROM.
- Small flash-memory drives with a USB connector are rather ubitiquous.
So... why not store the manuals INSIDE the instruments, and not have
this problem again?
|
Because, when the instrument breaks, you're right back in the same boat.
Cheers!
Rich |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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mroberds@worldnet.att.net wrote:
| Quote: | Have a USB port somewhere on the instrument. Plug in a flash drive,
push a button, and get a .txt or .pdf dumped to the flash drive.
|
Better yet, have a Flash ROM USB device buried in the instrument.
Plug in a PC and read out the file. Old instruments are easily
upgraded with a keychain ROM device and a glue gun.
Given the prices of keychain RAM drives, ROM or WORM devices have to
be nearly free... |
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mc
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject:
Re: Copyright on HP service manuals |
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| Quote: | So... why not store the manuals INSIDE the instruments, and not have
this problem again?
|
How about on a CD in an envelope inside the case?
That way it's immune to electrical damage to the instrument itself. |
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