| Author |
Message |
Jim Thompson
Guest
|
 Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:52:42 -0800, John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:43:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:28:00 -0500, Chuck Harris
cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
John, Don't waste your breath. Leftists just can not cope with the
concept that LESS taxes is a GOOD thing. Leftists throw up this
"corporate welfare" BS to confuse the masses... the masses who have NO
CLUE what it really is to PAY massive taxes... the masses who have NO
CLUE that it is THEY who are on welfare.
...Jim Thompson
It is really quite simple: If I pay more taxes, so you can pay less,
I am paying your way, and you are on welfare.
-Chuck
Yup. Just what I said. I'd just like to pay LESS of your way.
I pray for tax reform... but I doubt that it will ever happen... the
leftists won't allow anything that approaches fair taxation.
...Jim Thompson
The only rational taxation is a universal sales tax, with exemptions
for basics. That would reduce the huge disadvantage that domestic
manufacturers/employers face.
Income tax is a job-destroying machine.
John
|
That's what "W" wants. But watch the Demonkrauts block it :-(
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
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John Woodgate
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:11 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHIS
landPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote (in <rlnvu0lqmbtaoe6n0fftb3kh31mdhkv0de@
4ax.com>) about 'OT: Red States to Secede', on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:
| Quote: | Even simpler: if I pay taxes, and you don't, and we both receive
benefits, you are on welfare.
|
It sounds OK initially, but then what to make of these big corporations
that pay minute amounts in tax? How do they fit in?
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:02 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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|
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:52:42 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:43:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:28:00 -0500, Chuck Harris
cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
John, Don't waste your breath. Leftists just can not cope with the
concept that LESS taxes is a GOOD thing. Leftists throw up this
"corporate welfare" BS to confuse the masses... the masses who have NO
CLUE what it really is to PAY massive taxes... the masses who have NO
CLUE that it is THEY who are on welfare.
...Jim Thompson
It is really quite simple: If I pay more taxes, so you can pay less,
I am paying your way, and you are on welfare.
-Chuck
Yup. Just what I said. I'd just like to pay LESS of your way.
I pray for tax reform... but I doubt that it will ever happen... the
leftists won't allow anything that approaches fair taxation.
...Jim Thompson
The only rational taxation is a universal sales tax, with exemptions
for basics.
|
Screw the exemptions for "basics" (that's the politically easier
route, however). Give people money if they need it. The exemptions
cause a LOT of complexity with a reasonable VAT/GST type system
because of the way input tax credits have to be handled. AFAIK no
country has been able to do that (politically) at a useful tax rate.
| Quote: | That would reduce the huge disadvantage that domestic
manufacturers/employers face.
Income tax is a job-destroying machine.
John
|
*Replacing* IT with a GST/VAT at a reasonable rate would be nothing
short of revolutionary. Estate taxes should probably be jacked up
(make it easier to make money in this generation rather than
accumulate it over many), but that's another story.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:09 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:11:33 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:
| Quote: | I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHIS
landPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote (in <rlnvu0lqmbtaoe6n0fftb3kh31mdhkv0de@
4ax.com>) about 'OT: Red States to Secede', on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:
Even simpler: if I pay taxes, and you don't, and we both receive
benefits, you are on welfare.
It sounds OK initially, but then what to make of these big corporations
that pay minute amounts in tax? How do they fit in?
|
Like the farm that pays some tax, but receives massive subsidies on
its products.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Charles Edmondson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:27 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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Spehro Pefhany wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:11:33 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHIS
landPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote (in <rlnvu0lqmbtaoe6n0fftb3kh31mdhkv0de@
4ax.com>) about 'OT: Red States to Secede', on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:
Even simpler: if I pay taxes, and you don't, and we both receive
benefits, you are on welfare.
It sounds OK initially, but then what to make of these big corporations
that pay minute amounts in tax? How do they fit in?
Like the farm that pays some tax, but receives massive subsidies on
its products.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Because that corporation employs thousands of persons whoe EACH pay taxes... |
and issues dividends to stockholders who EACH pay taxes...
They get their cut, eventually!
--
Charlie
--
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems |
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John Larkin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:33 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:02:43 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
| Quote: | The only rational taxation is a universal sales tax, with exemptions
for basics.
Screw the exemptions for "basics" (that's the politically easier
route, however). Give people money if they need it. The exemptions
cause a LOT of complexity with a reasonable VAT/GST type system
because of the way input tax credits have to be handled. AFAIK no
country has been able to do that (politically) at a useful tax rate.
|
Here in California we have exemptions from sales tax for lots of
items; they just hit a key on the cash register, or program the
barcode scanner to handle it. But sure, you could combine universal
sales tax with a negative income tax; that's even simpler, if less
politically palatable.
And I didn't mean a VAT: I meant a single visible point-of-sale sales
tax; a tax entirely on end-user consumption. Businesses would pay the
tax on things they consumed, but not on things for resale. California
does that now, too.
John |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:39 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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|
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:27:07 -0800, the renowned Charles Edmondson
<edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:11:33 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHIS
landPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote (in <rlnvu0lqmbtaoe6n0fftb3kh31mdhkv0de@
4ax.com>) about 'OT: Red States to Secede', on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:
Even simpler: if I pay taxes, and you don't, and we both receive
benefits, you are on welfare.
It sounds OK initially, but then what to make of these big corporations
that pay minute amounts in tax? How do they fit in?
Like the farm that pays some tax, but receives massive subsidies on
its products.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Because that corporation employs thousands of persons whoe EACH pay taxes...
and issues dividends to stockholders who EACH pay taxes...
They get their cut, eventually!
Charlie
|
That's the kind of logic that has governments subsidizing "dead man
walking" corporations just to keep the employment going. Even if they
just break even or perhaps lose a bit (there are other businesses in
the area affected etc. etc. ad nauseam. Bad economics.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:55 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:33:07 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:02:43 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
The only rational taxation is a universal sales tax, with exemptions
for basics.
Screw the exemptions for "basics" (that's the politically easier
route, however). Give people money if they need it. The exemptions
cause a LOT of complexity with a reasonable VAT/GST type system
because of the way input tax credits have to be handled. AFAIK no
country has been able to do that (politically) at a useful tax rate.
Here in California we have exemptions from sales tax for lots of
items; they just hit a key on the cash register, or program the
barcode scanner to handle it. But sure, you could combine universal
sales tax with a negative income tax; that's even simpler, if less
politically palatable.
|
| Quote: | And I didn't mean a VAT: I meant a single visible point-of-sale sales
tax; a tax entirely on end-user consumption. Businesses would pay the
tax on things they consumed, but not on things for resale. California
does that now, too.
John
|
A VAT/GST is much better. Otherwise there is tax embedded in exported
goods, which is unfair to domestic companies. And there is double
taxation because businesses don't really "consume" things. It's really
simpler too.
As a consumer:
You pay tax on everything. End of story (unless there are exemptions)
No records to keep, nothing.
As a company (again assuming your business isn't involved with exempt
goods):
You pay tax on everything at X%.
You collect tax at X% on everything sold domestically.
You collect nothing (0%) on exported goods.
You remit (or claim a refund) of tax collected minus tax paid with
your sales tax return.
The records are essentially the same ones you'd need for corporate
income tax, and there is no double taxation.
In fact, it works so well without damaging the economy the trick is to
keep go vernments from cranking the spigot too far open. The Europeans
are experts in extracting taxation- that's why they use it.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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John Woodgate
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:05 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
I read in sci.electronics.design that Charles Edmondson
<edmondson@ieee.org> wrote (in <41eff7fb$1@news.cadence.com>) about 'OT:
Red States to Secede', on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:
| Quote: | Because that corporation employs thousands of persons whoe EACH pay
taxes...
and issues dividends to stockholders who EACH pay taxes...
They get their cut, eventually!
|
You could be right. If the corp pays little tax but high dividends, then
indeed there is a compensation effect. It's up to the government then to
set the corporation and personal tax rates to achieve a suitable
balance. There could even be an argument for abolishing corporation tax
and make it all personal. But then there are arguments against any
income tax at all ......
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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John Woodgate
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <njuvu0phnsidrgrmtuo6ioq17q47oc7gl9@4ax.com>)
about 'OT: Red States to Secede', on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:
| Quote: | That's the kind of logic that has governments subsidizing "dead man
walking" corporations just to keep the employment going. Even if they
just break even or perhaps lose a bit (there are other businesses in the
area affected etc. etc. ad nauseam. Bad economics.
|
Yes. In UK, we regard that as associated with 'Old Labour' - keeping
lame ducks going to appease the trade-union bank-rollers.
Recently, there seems to have been a 'sub rosa' intervention policy, to
lean on large but ailing companies with a view to avoiding ultimate
collapse by pre-crisis intervention. Naturally, no-one will admit it: it
wouldn't be 'cricket' for a civil servant to mention to a prominent
board member that the CEO was regarded in the corridors of power as a
wally.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:23 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:02:43 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:52:42 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:
[snip]
The only rational taxation is a universal sales tax, with exemptions
for basics.
Screw the exemptions for "basics" (that's the politically easier
route, however).
|
Nope. It's actually quite easy. Here in AZ there is no sales tax on
FOOD. Automatically done in the stores computerized registers.
| Quote: | Give people money if they need it.
|
Damn! Spehro, you're responding like a socialist ;-)
| Quote: | The exemptions
cause a LOT of complexity with a reasonable VAT/GST type system
because of the way input tax credits have to be handled. AFAIK no
country has been able to do that (politically) at a useful tax rate.
That would reduce the huge disadvantage that domestic
manufacturers/employers face.
Income tax is a job-destroying machine.
John
*Replacing* IT with a GST/VAT at a reasonable rate would be nothing
short of revolutionary. Estate taxes should probably be jacked up
(make it easier to make money in this generation rather than
accumulate it over many), but that's another story.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
|
Estate taxes? Come on, Spehro, here in the colonies we're gradually
phasing out estate taxes.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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| Back to top |
|
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John Woodgate
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:39 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <60uvu0l0dbemllbht7g5di1e7j4e8ju4m0@
4ax.com>) about 'OT: Red States to Secede', on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:
| Quote: | ere in California we have exemptions from sales tax for lots of items;
they just hit a key on the cash register, or program the barcode scanner
to handle it. But sure, you could combine universal sales tax with a
negative income tax; that's even simpler, if less politically palatable.
|
There are all sort of things that could and should be done if engineers
were in charge rather than economists. For example, a power law for
personal tax rather than stepped rates, and extending to negative rates.
| Quote: |
And I didn't mean a VAT: I meant a single visible point-of-sale sales
tax; a tax entirely on end-user consumption. Businesses would pay the
tax on things they consumed, but not on things for resale. California
does that now, too.
|
We'd like that in Europe, too, but the authorities have found VAT to be
a good way of collecting data on business activities that are not
exactly legal, or are legal but annoy the government.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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John S. Dyson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:53 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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|
In article <aLKdnZ4dQtmG3G3cRVn-sw@kans.com>,
"jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com> writes:
| Quote: |
"gwhite" <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote in message
news:41F017F8.5BEFC321@deadend.com...
jason wrote:
I don't know why the left hates Bush.
Gee, where do I begin?
He lied to get us into a war.
There is no proof that Bush lied. Please refer to a dictionary |
for the definition of a lie, and you'll see that claim to be untrue.
Perhaps that untrue claim is a lie in itself (in fact, is more probable
than Bush telling lies -- because I cannot believe that you don't know
what a lie is.)
Hint: making a statement that might be incorrect is not necessarily
a lie. The same statements that Bush had made were essentially the
same as being presented by Blair/Clinton and other democrat/GOP
leaders. Even the French had effectively admitted to misbehavior
by the Iraqis, but didn't believe that the misbehavior reached
the level that would necessitate the loss of their illegal oil
for food income.
| Quote: |
The soldiers are not adequately supplied.
Whose fault? Perhaps Clintons' ongoing undersupply of the military |
was difficult to overcome? Why weren't the uparmor kits already
supplied well before Bush?
Rest of your comments elided, because it seems like they are mostly
very very easy to refute or dismiss. It is very clear that your emotions
have overwhelmed your thinking process.
John |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:54 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:23:58 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:02:43 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:52:42 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:
[snip]
The only rational taxation is a universal sales tax, with exemptions
for basics.
Screw the exemptions for "basics" (that's the politically easier
route, however).
Nope. It's actually quite easy. Here in AZ there is no sales tax on
FOOD. Automatically done in the stores computerized registers.
|
No, the problem isn't exempting tax on classes of items at the
registers, everybody does that- it's that the companies that produce
food now have embedded tax in their products, or there is a complex
system to determine what everything is *used* for- exempt goods or
non-exempt goods, and their supplies must be exempt or non-exempt.
It's how the GST is done in Canada, so it's not totally unworkable,
but with a strong leadership (?) it might be possible to just have one
tax and no exemptions, which is much simpler. And the tax rate can be
quite a bit lower if you don't exempt so-called basics (food is a
typical "basic", but when you buy a prepared meal for $10 is it really
a "basic" or is it $1.50 of basic and 8.50 of preparation?). And what
is food? Chips? All that varies from state-to-state and
province-to-province right now. Bottom line, is that a lower rate is
better, and that means a minimum of exemptions (preferably none).
| Quote: | Give people money if they need it.
Damn! Spehro, you're responding like a socialist ;-)
|
Oh, not really, just going to the next step. Remember we've had
revolutionary sales tax reform in recent memory, so the issues are
relatively fresh to me. The argument will be that very poor people are
already spending 100% of their income and paying no IT so they can't
afford a sales tax. It's silly to make a decision that affects the
whole country's tax system on that group. Maybe they could have a
subsidy card that gives them a discount equivalent to the tax at
everyone else's expense. Or something else.
The nice thing would be if most people didn't have to keep track of
their income and expenses. I would like the privacy, for one thing.
| Quote: | The exemptions
cause a LOT of complexity with a reasonable VAT/GST type system
because of the way input tax credits have to be handled. AFAIK no
country has been able to do that (politically) at a useful tax rate.
That would reduce the huge disadvantage that domestic
manufacturers/employers face.
Income tax is a job-destroying machine.
John
*Replacing* IT with a GST/VAT at a reasonable rate would be nothing
short of revolutionary. Estate taxes should probably be jacked up
(make it easier to make money in this generation rather than
accumulate it over many), but that's another story.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Estate taxes? Come on, Spehro, here in the colonies we're gradually
phasing out estate taxes.
...Jim Thompson
|
Yes, it's a different group of people that would support a sales tax
and an estate tax (or equivalently to the latter, capital gains tax),
but just my view of "fairness" and efficiency. Of course the rate must
be further lowered by such a move, it's not "extra" money for the
government to waste. There's no estate tax at all here, BTW, but the
capital gains tax tends to have a similar effect. Politically,
probably difficult.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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John S. Dyson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:58 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
|
|
In article <1eg0v0d1548pbdfvup5nl0mg6muph8c5eu@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> writes:
| Quote: | On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:39:08 -0600, "jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com
wrote:
"gwhite" <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote in message
news:41F017F8.5BEFC321@deadend.com...
jason wrote:
I don't know why the left hates Bush.
Gee, where do I begin?
He lied to get us into a war.
The soldiers are not adequately supplied.
The only people who were RIGHT about what to expect in Iraq were fired or
"resigned."
The people who were WRONG about Iraq were promoted and/or given medals.
Bush has the brain of a retarded clam.
Bush and his administration condone torture.
The Bush administration lied to the 9/11 clean up crew about the air
quality.
Bush lies to the American public. Cheney lies to the American republic.
Rumsfeld lies to the American public. Rice lies to the American public.
Hmm, why does the "Left" hate Bush? Beats me.
Jesus, I can't believe engineers can be so damned stupid.
Probably, but not as ignorant as Liberals.
Please quit implying that the lefty/liars are 'liberal'. They |
tend to be much more doctorinare and intolerant than most of the
so-called conservatives (right wing like Rush Limbaugh, and centrist
like O'Reilly)!!! For an example of 'liberalism', please
refer to the attempts to suppress right wing and centrist speech
on college campuses. That sure aint' liberal, but is quite
narrow minded and intolerant (typical leftist.) BTW, those who try to
suppress left wing speech are also just as disgusting, but the centerist
and right wingers tend to be more tolerant (however disagreeing)
because of the history of being in the vocal minority... Of course,
that is less true today, where the intolerant left (most of the
left nowadays) tend to be odd curiosities, most apparently mentally
ill. The leftist/intolerant misbehavior (e.g. Stuart Smelley) are
the best salespeople away from the leftist religion.
John |
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