| Author |
Message |
John Larkin
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:46 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:49:06 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Strange. The 'red' states are net recipients of federal subsidies.
Does that make them socialists?....And please be more specic....In any event
have a great eveing Paul and I *did * never mean to troll ya!...take care,
I'd say yes. And on a more serious level than the kind of socialism that
the blue states are reputed to support. Red state socialism involves
subsidies and protectionist legislation of industrial and agricultural
production.
|
AKA "jobs". As in "work."
| Quote: | Blue state socialism tends to emphasize assistance to
individuals (health care, welfare, etc.).
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AKA "welfare". As in "don't work."
John
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jason
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:15 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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"gwhite" <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote in message
news:41EC0DE4.52CDD7E2@deadend.com...
| Quote: |
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." -- someone
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You wanna walk a road in Hell? Go to Iraq. |
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Ross Mac
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:28 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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"Fred Bloggs" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:41EC1395.6050702@nospam.com...
| Quote: |
gwhite wrote:
Winfield Hill wrote:
Ross Mac wrote...
That's an interesting statement (soviet national anthem) since the "blue
states" believe in a political philosophy that boarders on socialism????
Totally false, and a gratuitous smear on half the country.
It's sometimes difficult to give someone a pointer on where to start, but
perhaps this is as good as any:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0761501657/
There are, without any serious question, socialist roots to much of the
left's
political platform. The American left does not embrace the "hot"
socialism of
the soviets, but certainly it does embrace "cold" socialism. Hiding
socialism
under the guise of the welfare state, hidden taxes, and the regulation of
every
affair imaginable does not make a spade anything other than a spade.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." -- someone
I notice you ignorant jerk offs have no problem with federal economic
subsidies to red state industries which exceed that of the blue states.
And you would be right- that is not socialism- it IS welfare. You *things*
make me sick- try to understand the meaning of rationalization and then
realize you should just shut the hell up.
Geez Fred...realax a bit...but hey...on the original comment...the red |
states are far from socialist....but at least you didn't leave a link to
amazon.com....what was with that??...maybe I missed something.....Ross
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Ross Mac
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:38 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:41ED7642.E6F5C7C6@Hovnanian.com...
| Quote: | Ross Mac wrote:
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:41E893DC.DBC76B42@Hovnanian.com...
Ross Mac wrote:
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:41E5F059.FDBDD25C@Hovnanian.com...
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:41:38 -0600, jbyrns@rcn.com (John Byrns)
wrote:
In article <btq5u0he51mu1sj9uq72uikm1fab5hc2gu@4ax.com>, Jim
Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
News Flash: Red States to Secede
The Democrats have announced that the Red States will secede
from
the
Union and form a new country, to be called: "People's Choice".
Michael Moore will be President
Hillary Clinton will be Vice President
Howard Dean will be Secretary of State
Jane Fonda will be Secretary of Defense
The ~Reverend~ Jackson will head the Ministry of Propaganda and
Feel
Good
Other posts remain to be filled
The new country will feature a Congress of only one house,
called
the
RiffRaff, and will be made up of citizens on the welfare rolls
from
each state, with special extra representation of "undocumented"
workers and "freedom" fighters
Freedom of Speech Laws will be enhanced... calling anyone a
"left
wing
wienie" will result in life-time imprisonment, without trial
Either I don't get the joke, or you have the Red and Blue states
confused,
please explain.
Regards,
John Byrns
Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/
Oh Crap! I "blue" it... make that "Blue States to Secede" :-(
No. You reds go ahead and secede. By the way, we have a good
national
anthem for you. It's not currently being used and it fits Bush's
political philosophy quite well: http://tinyurl.com/5lhzc
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to die quietly in my sleep, like my grandfather,
not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
That's an interesting statement (soviet national anthem) since the
"blue
states" believe in a political philosophy that boarders on
socialism?????????
Just an observation not a personal attack....take care
Paul............Ross
Strange. The 'red' states are net recipients of federal subsidies.
Does that make them socialists?....And please be more specic....In any
event
have a great eveing Paul and I *did * never mean to troll ya!...take
care,
I'd say yes. And on a more serious level than the kind of socialism that
the blue states are reputed to support. Red state socialism involves
subsidies and protectionist legislation of industrial and agricultural
production. Blue state socialism tends to emphasize assistance to
individuals (health care, welfare, etc.).
Countries that have extensive social welfare systems but open markets
tend to have higher standards of living and respectable GDPs. Countries
that have pursued government control and subsidies for their means of
production have faired far less well (look at the Soviet Union, N. Korea
and China of a few decades ago for good examples).
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary and those who don't.
I guess this has become a discussion of the difference between what is |
called corporate welfare and individual welfare. IMO socialism is tied much
more toward individual welfare. The intent of corporate welfare is to
improve business which provides jobs and opportunities to the individuals. I
still think it is a bit of a stretch to claim a political party that is pro
business is socialist...but, to each their own opinion....Ross my .02 |
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:56 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:38:04 -0500, "Ross Mac"
<this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | ------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary and those who don't.
I guess this has become a discussion of the difference between what is
called corporate welfare and individual welfare. IMO socialism is tied much
more toward individual welfare. The intent of corporate welfare is to
improve business which provides jobs and opportunities to the individuals. I
still think it is a bit of a stretch to claim a political party that is pro
business is socialist...but, to each their own opinion....Ross my .02
|
It is pure newspeak to refer to a reduction in taxation or regulation
as "corporate welfare." Welfare is when government transfers net funds
to an entity in exchange for nothing. A reduction in taxation is just
that, a somewhat reduced flow of funds from a productive entity to
government.
If my company gets a tax credit for hiring people or investing in
equipment, that's not welfare; that's just slightly less taxation.
John |
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Ross Mac
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:01 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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"John Larkin" <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote in
message news:o7mru05nht8buj0jdeh0netpduk5bvpiv6@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:38:04 -0500, "Ross Mac"
this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary and those who don't.
I guess this has become a discussion of the difference between what is
called corporate welfare and individual welfare. IMO socialism is tied
much
more toward individual welfare. The intent of corporate welfare is to
improve business which provides jobs and opportunities to the individuals.
I
still think it is a bit of a stretch to claim a political party that is
pro
business is socialist...but, to each their own opinion....Ross my .02
It is pure newspeak to refer to a reduction in taxation or regulation
as "corporate welfare." Welfare is when government transfers net funds
to an entity in exchange for nothing. A reduction in taxation is just
that, a somewhat reduced flow of funds from a productive entity to
government.
If my company gets a tax credit for hiring people or investing in
equipment, that's not welfare; that's just slightly less taxation.
John
Agreed...it is a misused term I don't agree with but used to make a |
point!....Ross |
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gwhite
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:24 am Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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jason wrote:
| Quote: |
"gwhite" <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote in message
news:41EC0DE4.52CDD7E2@deadend.com...
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." -- someone
You wanna walk a road in Hell? Go to Iraq.
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Then you agree. Good. |
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Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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John Larkin wrote:
| Quote: |
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:49:06 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote:
Strange. The 'red' states are net recipients of federal subsidies.
Does that make them socialists?....And please be more specic....In any event
have a great eveing Paul and I *did * never mean to troll ya!...take care,
I'd say yes. And on a more serious level than the kind of socialism that
the blue states are reputed to support. Red state socialism involves
subsidies and protectionist legislation of industrial and agricultural
production.
AKA "jobs". As in "work."
|
Jobs in inefficient industries. Better to let them die and shift the
work force to businesses that produce economic value.
| Quote: | Blue state socialism tends to emphasize assistance to
individuals (health care, welfare, etc.).
AKA "welfare". As in "don't work."
|
Just costs that society will pay one way or another. Businesses aren't
very efficient when it comes to purchasing things like health care
benefits for employees. They would be better off if they didn't have to
concern themselves with such expenses.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
We are confronted with insurmountable opportunities.
-- Walt Kelly, "Pogo" |
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jason
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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"John Larkin" <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote in
message news:o7mru05nht8buj0jdeh0netpduk5bvpiv6@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:38:04 -0500, "Ross Mac"
this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary and those who don't.
I guess this has become a discussion of the difference between what is
called corporate welfare and individual welfare. IMO socialism is tied
much
more toward individual welfare. The intent of corporate welfare is to
improve business which provides jobs and opportunities to the individuals.
I
still think it is a bit of a stretch to claim a political party that is
pro
business is socialist...but, to each their own opinion....Ross my .02
It is pure newspeak to refer to a reduction in taxation or regulation
as "corporate welfare." Welfare is when government transfers net funds
to an entity in exchange for nothing. A reduction in taxation is just
that, a somewhat reduced flow of funds from a productive entity to
government.
If my company gets a tax credit for hiring people or investing in
equipment, that's not welfare; that's just slightly less taxation.
John
|
"Welfare is when government transfers net funds to an entity in exchange for
nothing."
What a nebulous definition! "In exchange for nothing...."
Welfare for individuals is society's way of supporting people who enter
"tough times." Whether that be through unforeseen tragedies, medical
expenses, bad investments, etc., it is a way for people to get by until they
can get back on their feet. And when children are involved, it seems only
civilized. The New Deal pulled tens of thousands of families out of
poverty - ironically, many of whose ancestors today cry for an end to social
programs which helped their own grandparents survive.
Corporate welfare vs. individual welfare - each has a benefit to society.
Yes, corporate welfare can help a businesss entity stay in business, provide
more jobs through expansion, etc. And yes, individual welfare can help
people get by until they can land a better paying job or pay off extreme
debts.
And yes, both can be abused.
But I submit that it is coporoate welfare that should justify itself - the
benefits to society - just as much as individual welfare must justify it's
benefits to society.
However, I rarely see ANY examples in the media of corporate welfare abuses
or inefficiencies. Representatives just come out and say "it creates jobs,"
and that is the end of that story, with rarely, if any, "empirical evidence"
to support that claim. (Don't conservatives just love that word
"empirical"?)
Unfortunately, families and individuals who need food stamps and other
welfare programs rarely have the means to hire Hill & Knowlton or other
public relations firms to represent them in the media.
That is why people walk down the street thinking welfare mothers are lazy
kid-popping drug addicts and corporate welfare helps create jobs.
Any capitalist society needs corporate welfare - otherwise the economy would
be too unstable.
Any capitalist society needs individual welfare - otherwise there would be
people starving in the streets, and massive public health problems.
It is just a matter of compassion and civilization. I am always amazed how
right-wingers use phrases such as "bleeding-heart liberal" and "johnny
do-gooder," and yet go to church every Sunday, AND LET EVERYBODY KNOW that
they go to church on Sunday.
Wasn't Jesus a bleeding heart liberal? Isn't there an order of the sacred
heart which shows Jesus's heart bleeding?
What is wrong with trying to do good?
And didn't Jesus say to pray alone, in private, that it is uncouth to show
off your piety? |
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:16:41 -0600, "jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Any capitalist society needs corporate welfare - otherwise the economy would
be too unstable.
|
It does not. All it needs is a vigorous free market and
less-then-crushing levels of taxation. Competition will take care of
the rest.
John |
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Jim Thompson
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:03:27 -0800, John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:16:41 -0600, "jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com
wrote:
Any capitalist society needs corporate welfare - otherwise the economy would
be too unstable.
It does not. All it needs is a vigorous free market and
less-then-crushing levels of taxation. Competition will take care of
the rest.
John
|
John, Don't waste your breath. Leftists just can not cope with the
concept that LESS taxes is a GOOD thing. Leftists throw up this
"corporate welfare" BS to confuse the masses... the masses who have NO
CLUE what it really is to PAY massive taxes... the masses who have NO
CLUE that it is THEY who are on welfare.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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Chuck Harris
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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Jim Thompson wrote:
| Quote: | John, Don't waste your breath. Leftists just can not cope with the
concept that LESS taxes is a GOOD thing. Leftists throw up this
"corporate welfare" BS to confuse the masses... the masses who have NO
CLUE what it really is to PAY massive taxes... the masses who have NO
CLUE that it is THEY who are on welfare.
...Jim Thompson
|
It is really quite simple: If I pay more taxes, so you can pay less,
I am paying your way, and you are on welfare.
-Chuck |
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:40 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:28:00 -0500, Chuck Harris
<cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Thompson wrote:
John, Don't waste your breath. Leftists just can not cope with the
concept that LESS taxes is a GOOD thing. Leftists throw up this
"corporate welfare" BS to confuse the masses... the masses who have NO
CLUE what it really is to PAY massive taxes... the masses who have NO
CLUE that it is THEY who are on welfare.
...Jim Thompson
It is really quite simple: If I pay more taxes, so you can pay less,
I am paying your way, and you are on welfare.
-Chuck
|
Even simpler: if I pay taxes, and you don't, and we both receive
benefits, you are on welfare.
John |
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Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:43 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:28:00 -0500, Chuck Harris
<cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Thompson wrote:
John, Don't waste your breath. Leftists just can not cope with the
concept that LESS taxes is a GOOD thing. Leftists throw up this
"corporate welfare" BS to confuse the masses... the masses who have NO
CLUE what it really is to PAY massive taxes... the masses who have NO
CLUE that it is THEY who are on welfare.
...Jim Thompson
It is really quite simple: If I pay more taxes, so you can pay less,
I am paying your way, and you are on welfare.
-Chuck
|
Yup. Just what I said. I'd just like to pay LESS of your way.
I pray for tax reform... but I doubt that it will ever happen... the
leftists won't allow anything that approaches fair taxation.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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John Larkin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject:
Re: OT: Red States to Secede |
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:43:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:28:00 -0500, Chuck Harris
cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
John, Don't waste your breath. Leftists just can not cope with the
concept that LESS taxes is a GOOD thing. Leftists throw up this
"corporate welfare" BS to confuse the masses... the masses who have NO
CLUE what it really is to PAY massive taxes... the masses who have NO
CLUE that it is THEY who are on welfare.
...Jim Thompson
It is really quite simple: If I pay more taxes, so you can pay less,
I am paying your way, and you are on welfare.
-Chuck
Yup. Just what I said. I'd just like to pay LESS of your way.
I pray for tax reform... but I doubt that it will ever happen... the
leftists won't allow anything that approaches fair taxation.
...Jim Thompson
|
The only rational taxation is a universal sales tax, with exemptions
for basics. That would reduce the huge disadvantage that domestic
manufacturers/employers face.
Income tax is a job-destroying machine.
John |
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