| Author |
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Guest
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 Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:58 am Post subject:
Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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As I understand it the resistor wastes energy by converting it into
heat. Consider this simple circuit a battery connected to a light bulb.
The light bulb shines onto a photocell the photocell charges the
battery. Thus the light bulb functions as a resistor but some of the
energy has been recovered. Now that the problem has been defined
someone who understands the physics better can work on making a
resistor that does not waste power.
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Larry Brasfield
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:02 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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<currentresident@veloemail.com> wrote in message
news:1110664733.748132.80650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | As I understand it the resistor wastes energy by converting it into
heat. Consider this simple circuit a battery connected to a light bulb.
The light bulb shines onto a photocell the photocell charges the
battery. Thus the light bulb functions as a resistor but some of the
energy has been recovered. Now that the problem has been defined
someone who understands the physics better can work on making a
resistor that does not waste power.
|
Why don't you get yourself an education and
pursue this breakthru idea yourself? While you
are at it, maybe you can invent a noiseless
resistor for use in amplifier circuits.
--
--Larry Brasfield
email: donotspam_larry_brasfield@hotmail.com
Above views may belong only to me. |
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Robert Monsen
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:23 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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currentresident@veloemail.com wrote:
| Quote: | As I understand it the resistor wastes energy by converting it into
heat. Consider this simple circuit a battery connected to a light bulb.
The light bulb shines onto a photocell the photocell charges the
battery. Thus the light bulb functions as a resistor but some of the
energy has been recovered. Now that the problem has been defined
someone who understands the physics better can work on making a
resistor that does not waste power.
|
Back in physics class, many years ago, I heard about schemes to use
flywheels to store braking energy. This is the same deal. The idea is
that instead of just dissipating the energy into heat, one somehow
couples the brakes into a flywheel, saving some of the energy.
I believe the Toyota Prius uses a scheme where braking force is used to
charge the battery, but this may be more sales pitch than reality.
Switch mode power supplies are devices that attempt to cleverly
circumvent resistive losses by transferring energy using a magnetic field.
Just because they say you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. You
are never going to win the game (zero energy dissipation), but you may
be able to hedge against loss somewhat. 50 years ago, nobody could have
imagined the complexity of integrated circuits today. Who knows what the
next 50 years will bring?
--
Regards,
Robert Monsen
"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.
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Anthony Fremont
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:06 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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"Robert Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bsKdnb3q0v1j5K7fRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
| Quote: | currentresident@veloemail.com wrote:
As I understand it the resistor wastes energy by converting it into
heat. Consider this simple circuit a battery connected to a light
bulb.
The light bulb shines onto a photocell the photocell charges the
battery. Thus the light bulb functions as a resistor but some of the
energy has been recovered. Now that the problem has been defined
someone who understands the physics better can work on making a
resistor that does not waste power.
Back in physics class, many years ago, I heard about schemes to use
flywheels to store braking energy. This is the same deal. The idea is
that instead of just dissipating the energy into heat, one somehow
couples the brakes into a flywheel, saving some of the energy.
I believe the Toyota Prius uses a scheme where braking force is used
to
charge the battery, but this may be more sales pitch than reality.
|
The entire NY MTA fleet of "new technology" subway cars uses this
technique to feed electricity back to the "third" rail instead of
generating pure heat while braking. This and an adjustment in
acceleration of the trains results in 240,000,000 killowatt-hours per
year. That's allota juice.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffenvironment.htm
I believe that there are also large city buses that compress air to help
slow down. They then release the air to help get the bus moving again.
Seems smarter than just making heat to get stopped. I would also think
that you could wind up a spring and use the stored energy to get going.
But it would be heavy and large not to mention quite dangerous.
* I think they actually pump hydraulic fluid from one holding tank to
another while compressing air is a side effect to store the energy.
| Quote: | Switch mode power supplies are devices that attempt to cleverly
circumvent resistive losses by transferring energy using a magnetic
field. |
I'd say that by acheiving >90% efficiency, it's more than a "clever
attempt". ;-)
| Quote: | Just because they say you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.
You
are never going to win the game (zero energy dissipation), but you may
be able to hedge against loss somewhat. 50 years ago, nobody could
have
imagined the complexity of integrated circuits today. Who knows what
the
next 50 years will bring? |
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Larry Brasfield
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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"Robert Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in
message news:bsKdnb3q0v1j5K7fRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
| Quote: | currentresident@veloemail.com wrote:
As I understand it the resistor wastes energy by converting it into
heat. Consider this simple circuit a battery connected to a light bulb.
The light bulb shines onto a photocell the photocell charges the
battery. Thus the light bulb functions as a resistor but some of the
energy has been recovered. Now that the problem has been defined
someone who understands the physics better can work on making a
resistor that does not waste power.
Back in physics class, many years ago, I heard about schemes to use flywheels to store braking energy. This is the same deal. The
idea is that instead of just dissipating the energy into heat, one somehow couples the brakes into a flywheel, saving some of the
energy.
I believe the Toyota Prius uses a scheme where braking force is used to charge the battery, but this may be more sales pitch than
reality.
|
Their technical descriptions indicate this clearly
enough that it would be fraudulent if not true.
Of course, one could assert the the energy
losses make it a gimic, and some performance
numbers would be needed to gainsay that.
| Quote: | Just because they say you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. You are never going to win the game (zero energy
dissipation), but you may be able to hedge against loss somewhat. 50 years ago, nobody could have imagined the complexity of
integrated circuits today. Who knows what the next 50 years will bring?
|
Can you imagine a non-dissipative resistor that
could accept thermal noise from another resistor
and convert any fraction of it into work? (This
question is either trick, rhetorical, or a starting
point for an interesting discussion.)
--
--Larry Brasfield
email: donotspam_larry_brasfield@hotmail.com
Above views may belong only to me. |
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Silver Surfer
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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Tom asked:
"Could we power a generator with a motor and power the motor with the
generator and have a continuous supply of motion?"
Even if the generator and motor did not each have inherent losses then what
would this accomplish?
"Tom Biasi" <tombiasi@REMOVEoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:I9MYd.2094$iS6.146@fe10.lga...
| Quote: |
currentresident@veloemail.com> wrote in message
news:1110664733.748132.80650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
As I understand it the resistor wastes energy by converting it into
heat. Consider this simple circuit a battery connected to a light bulb.
The light bulb shines onto a photocell the photocell charges the
battery. Thus the light bulb functions as a resistor but some of the
energy has been recovered. Now that the problem has been defined
someone who understands the physics better can work on making a
resistor that does not waste power.
Hi,
The resistor doesn't waste energy it just transforms it.
If you have no need for the heat then to you it is wasted.
What you are saying is that a portion of the energy that supplies the
light bulb does not make light.
You wish to recover the energy that does not make light.
It can and is done now.
Take a look at some of the efficienticencies of transforming energy and
see what is feasible.
Could we power a generator with a motor and power the motor with the
generator and have a continuous supply of motion?
Regards,
Tom
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Tom Biasi
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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<currentresident@veloemail.com> wrote in message
news:1110664733.748132.80650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | As I understand it the resistor wastes energy by converting it into
heat. Consider this simple circuit a battery connected to a light bulb.
The light bulb shines onto a photocell the photocell charges the
battery. Thus the light bulb functions as a resistor but some of the
energy has been recovered. Now that the problem has been defined
someone who understands the physics better can work on making a
resistor that does not waste power.
Hi, |
The resistor doesn't waste energy it just transforms it.
If you have no need for the heat then to you it is wasted.
What you are saying is that a portion of the energy that supplies the light
bulb does not make light.
You wish to recover the energy that does not make light.
It can and is done now.
Take a look at some of the efficienticencies of transforming energy and see
what is feasible.
Could we power a generator with a motor and power the motor with the
generator and have a continuous supply of motion?
Regards,
Tom |
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Tom Biasi
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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"Silver Surfer" <h.mcguffinspamouflage@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bP2dnQH0UvM_C67fRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Tom asked:
"Could we power a generator with a motor and power the motor with the
generator and have a continuous supply of motion?"
Even if the generator and motor did not each have inherent losses then
what would this accomplish?
That was for the OP to ponder :-) |
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PeteS
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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Of course, there are other good reasons we use resistors (and yes, they
'waste' power).
As noted, switch mode power supplies (and class D amplifiers) make
slick use of integrating energy so they are far more efficient, but the
complexity of these is such you could not (at present; I've been in
this game long enough to know what we do not do now can change rapidly)
use such techniques everywhere.
Consider the lowly ordinary linear amplifier. It will, by definition,
waste power if one simply does the mathematics of Po/Pi where Pi is the
input from the power supply and the energy from the input source. There
you have the efficiency of the amplifier and it will always be fairly
low (for a linear amp - let's say Class A). Non-linear amplifiers have
been used for many years where efficiency was a concern and circuit
techniques could be used (Class C amplifiers for RF power sections are
an example).
This reminds me of the laws of thermodynamics:
1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even
3. You can't get out of the game.
So will there eventually be a replacement? Perhaps; but the utility of
the humble resistor in many areas (pullups/downs, termination devices
and thousands more) will have it living in new systems for some time to
come :)
Cheers
PeteS |
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Rodney Kelp
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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"Silver Surfer" <h.mcguffinspamouflage@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bP2dnQH0UvM_C67fRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Tom asked:
"Could we power a generator with a motor and power the motor with the
generator and have a continuous supply of motion?"
Even if the generator and motor did not each have inherent losses then
what would this accomplish?
I think the idea is to have surplus power to have the motor do work and yet |
maintain the motor with the generator. But I think you would need to inject
an antimatter stream somewhere to make it work.
| Quote: |
"Tom Biasi" <tombiasi@REMOVEoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:I9MYd.2094$iS6.146@fe10.lga...
currentresident@veloemail.com> wrote in message
news:1110664733.748132.80650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
As I understand it the resistor wastes energy by converting it into
heat. Consider this simple circuit a battery connected to a light bulb.
The light bulb shines onto a photocell the photocell charges the
battery. Thus the light bulb functions as a resistor but some of the
energy has been recovered. Now that the problem has been defined
someone who understands the physics better can work on making a
resistor that does not waste power.
Hi,
The resistor doesn't waste energy it just transforms it.
If you have no need for the heat then to you it is wasted.
What you are saying is that a portion of the energy that supplies the
light bulb does not make light.
You wish to recover the energy that does not make light.
It can and is done now.
Take a look at some of the efficienticencies of transforming energy and
see what is feasible.
Could we power a generator with a motor and power the motor with the
generator and have a continuous supply of motion?
Regards,
Tom
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Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:07 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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OK here is another one have the light bulb shine on the photocell and
connect the solarcell in series with the bulb biased the other way.
With a solarcell of .5 volts you can have a reverse voltage of just
about anything you want. I can see some one making this as a single
device, a tungstan filiment enclosed with the solarcell sealed with
epoxy for 69 cents. Yes I know this is inefficent I just want to
stimulate discussion. |
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Larry Brasfield
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:16 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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<currentresident@veloemail.com> wrote in message
news:1110830824.747153.36690@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | OK here is another one have the light bulb shine on the photocell and
connect the solarcell in series with the bulb biased the other way.
With a solarcell of .5 volts you can have a reverse voltage of just
about anything you want.
|
Ok, I'll bite. Voltage is not power, and few
people want voltage for its sake alone.
| Quote: | I can see some one making this as a single
device, a tungstan filiment enclosed with the solarcell sealed with
epoxy for 69 cents.
|
To see that requires some lack of
aquaintance with simple economics.
(I assume this is still related to the
resistor mentioned in your subject.)
| Quote: | Yes I know this is inefficent I just want to
stimulate discussion.
|
You are bordering on a troll. Perhaps you
should go to the library and read up about
the history of perpetual motion machines.
They have long appealled to some people,
and you may be one of them. If not, that
study will be educational in ways that go
beyond the science involved.
--
--Larry Brasfield
email: donotspam_larry_brasfield@hotmail.com
Above views may belong only to me. |
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phaeton
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:38 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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Or on a similar note (to the point about transformed energy is only
wasted if you don't want it)...
Some of those very large electrical junctionboxes (look like a huge
heat sink) that you'll find in a lot of industrial parks or on the
edges of shopping centers. You know, the big green ones that buzz
loudly. iirc, they've got a huge step-down transformer in there that
is converting line voltage into something useable by industrial
equpment.
Does the gigantic transformer throw off enough electromagnetic
oscillation to energize the coils of a smaller transformer (about the
size of your fist) if it is placed nearby? Could you used this "waste"
to power anything? I've always wanted to take a small transformer and
meter up to one and see what i'd get, but with the Patriot Act and
all....
....or maybe i'm just insane. I have pondered a "lossless resistor"
like the OP speaks of, as well. I'm unfortunately not educated enough
to do anything about it :-( |
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John Fields
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:50 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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On 12 Mar 2005 13:58:53 -0800, currentresident@veloemail.com wrote:
| Quote: | As I understand it the resistor wastes energy by converting it into
heat. Consider this simple circuit a battery connected to a light bulb.
The light bulb shines onto a photocell the photocell charges the
battery. Thus the light bulb functions as a resistor but some of the
energy has been recovered. Now that the problem has been defined
someone who understands the physics better can work on making a
resistor that does not waste power.
|
---
That's just stupid. Resistors are _supposed_ to waste power.
--
John Fields |
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John Fields
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:54 am Post subject:
Re: Time to get rid of the resistor. |
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On 14 Mar 2005 12:07:04 -0800, currentresident@veloemail.com wrote:
| Quote: | OK here is another one have the light bulb shine on the photocell and
connect the solarcell in series with the bulb biased the other way.
With a solarcell of .5 volts you can have a reverse voltage of just
about anything you want. I can see some one making this as a single
device, a tungstan filiment enclosed with the solarcell sealed with
epoxy for 69 cents. Yes I know this is inefficent I just want to
stimulate discussion.
|
---
OK, discuss this:
What, pray tell, would you do with the piece of shit once it was
built?
--
John Fields |
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