| Author |
Message |
CJT
Guest
|
 Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:12 am Post subject:
Re: double standards |
|
|
Mark Jones wrote:
| Quote: | Reg Edwards wrote:
We've had quite enough of USA devices in Europe, particularly in Yugoslavia.
I've had quite enough "double standards" regardless of country.
Some drive kilometers/hour, some pay in pesos, some drink fluid
ounces. Why is there a MMF but no milli-farad? How many yen is 10
euros? Why is spacecraft velocity measured in terrestral units/sec
instead of relative to C? A megohm is how many Mmho? How much does a
drop of liquid _____ weigh? A Siemen is what? How much does a 10-penny
nail cost? Will a euro device work in Pakistan? How tall is a horse?
How far is it to Alpha Centauri? How many cars still use a positive
chassis? How much energy does a hydrogen atom contain?
Oh dear, what was my name again?
It's not so much that it is too difficult to learn all these units
and standards, but the question is *why* all the units and standards?
Why must we devote so much cognitive effort to what amounts to
unneccesary and completely unproductive complexity? Is that going to
make us smarter? I'd wager that millions of hours of cognitive time is
wasted every day just in the confusion and adaptation of units and
measures. Why must we defend all these standards? Why must they
endure? Why not simplify the entire mess nad get everyone on the same
page? Why not *remove* some standards for a change, instead of
creating more new ones? At what point must something give? At what
point will the design break down? When is enough?
If the UK can systematically convert its entire economy over to a new
currency without so much as a hiccup, what does that say about our
capabilities?
I know, I know. Regarding scientists, the discoverers do deserve
credit for their discoveries. In elementary school we are taught
presidents and world history - but never who Ohm or Volta or Maxwell
is. This should be changed - it is important to know all the major
discoverers. So instead, we use their names in units of measurement.
Ohms and Volts and Maxwell's Equations. How flattering it must be, to
have your name used in daily conversation forever... and also how
egotistical. An airoplane isn't called a "DaVinci Flyer," even though
in many aspects he might have been the biggest initial conduit to
conceptualization. What's more, we're so accustomed to calling them
"planes" that "DaVinci Flyer" sounds downright absurd. Well most units
and measures sound like this literally. An ohm could be known as a
"hwernyoe" and as long as we learned it that way, that would sound
correct to us. Does "22 hwernyoe @ 12 yequilads = 0.545454 popuzingas"
make sense to you?
How about 12E / 22R = 0.545454I?
Defend it, if you must.
But if everyone used X EMF at X Frequency with X style plug, then
there'd be no bitching. Whose fault is that? Surely you don't say it's
all the US's fault. Is the logic "if all else fails, blame the US?" I
can't blame any country (even the US) for wanting to "retain their
individuality" but come on. Anyone who creates a double standard has
to live with the consequences. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy foreign
goods. I have to convert mL into quarts and pints all the time. But
wouldn't it be nice to have one set of standards?
Things would be very different, if I had a say in it. I suppose
you're glad I don't. Well at least we've got the free-speech thing
down, for the most part. Two billion more advancements to go.
-- "It's the new millennium. Do you know where your kids are?"
(Sponserd bt the fookt-on-honiks skool for newage edjumication) MCJ
20050116
|
Well said!
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.
|
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Ken Weitzel
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:19 am Post subject:
Re: double standards |
|
|
Mark Jones wrote:
| Quote: | Reg Edwards wrote:
We've had quite enough of USA devices in Europe, particularly in Yugoslavia.
I've had quite enough "double standards" regardless of country.
Some drive kilometers/hour, some pay in pesos, some drink fluid
ounces. Why is there a MMF but no milli-farad? How many yen is 10
euros? Why is spacecraft velocity measured in terrestral units/sec
instead of relative to C? A megohm is how many Mmho? How much does a
drop of liquid _____ weigh? A Siemen is what? How much does a 10-penny
nail cost? Will a euro device work in Pakistan? How tall is a horse?
How far is it to Alpha Centauri? How many cars still use a positive
chassis? How much energy does a hydrogen atom contain?
Oh dear, what was my name again?
It's not so much that it is too difficult to learn all these units
and standards, but the question is *why* all the units and standards?
Why must we devote so much cognitive effort to what amounts to
unneccesary and completely unproductive complexity? Is that going to
make us smarter? I'd wager that millions of hours of cognitive time is
wasted every day just in the confusion and adaptation of units and
measures. Why must we defend all these standards? Why must they
endure? Why not simplify the entire mess nad get everyone on the same
page? Why not *remove* some standards for a change, instead of
creating more new ones? At what point must something give? At what
point will the design break down? When is enough?
If the UK can systematically convert its entire economy over to a new
currency without so much as a hiccup, what does that say about our
capabilities?
I know, I know. Regarding scientists, the discoverers do deserve
credit for their discoveries. In elementary school we are taught
presidents and world history - but never who Ohm or Volta or Maxwell
is. This should be changed - it is important to know all the major
discoverers. So instead, we use their names in units of measurement.
Ohms and Volts and Maxwell's Equations. How flattering it must be, to
have your name used in daily conversation forever... and also how
egotistical. An airoplane isn't called a "DaVinci Flyer," even though
in many aspects he might have been the biggest initial conduit to
conceptualization. What's more, we're so accustomed to calling them
"planes" that "DaVinci Flyer" sounds downright absurd. Well most units
and measures sound like this literally. An ohm could be known as a
"hwernyoe" and as long as we learned it that way, that would sound
correct to us. Does "22 hwernyoe @ 12 yequilads = 0.545454 popuzingas"
make sense to you?
How about 12E / 22R = 0.545454I?
Defend it, if you must.
But if everyone used X EMF at X Frequency with X style plug, then
there'd be no bitching. Whose fault is that? Surely you don't say it's
all the US's fault. Is the logic "if all else fails, blame the US?" I
can't blame any country (even the US) for wanting to "retain their
individuality" but come on. Anyone who creates a double standard has
to live with the consequences. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy foreign
goods. I have to convert mL into quarts and pints all the time. But
wouldn't it be nice to have one set of standards?
Things would be very different, if I had a say in it. I suppose
you're glad I don't. Well at least we've got the free-speech thing
down, for the most part. Two billion more advancements to go.
|
Reminds me of a very, very old joke.
A Mother, watching a large troop of marching soldiers,
proudly exclaims to the woman standing beside her:
"Look, that's my son! And of all those soldiers, he's
the only one in step"
I leave it to you to decide the nationality of that
Mother.
Ken |
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|
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NSM
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:34 am Post subject:
Re: double standards (was: charge an american device in Euro |
|
|
"Mark Jones" <abuse@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:PIidnd2Ol9JAWnfcRVn-sg@buckeye-express.com...
| Things would be very different, if I had a say in it. I suppose
| you're glad I don't. Well at least we've got the free-speech thing
| down, for the most part. Two billion more advancements to go.
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which
they avoid".
Freedom of Speech - Kierkegaard, Soren - 1813-1855 Danish Philosopher Writer
|
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jakdedert
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:57 am Post subject:
Re: DANGER: Charge an american device in Europe |
|
|
NSM wrote:
| Quote: | andreas.manoli@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105782097.489841.247200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hi,
I live in Europe where the electricity is 240V and 50HZ
I just bought a (WAHL) hair trimmer from the USA. The battery charger
for the hair trimmer is made for USA (input 120VAC, 60HZ, 5W) and
has ... b) Buy a transformer for the transformer! (transform 240V AC
to 120V AC) . The issue here is bulk, overheating and different
frequencies.
120 VAC will smoke the charger. You need a 240 V to 100 V transformer
to allow for the lower frequency. Trust me, I've lost more than my
share.
N
|
Why 100v? He specifically stated that it was a 120v appliance from America.
To the OP, as many have stated, yes, you need a 240v-120v transformer.
Possibly you can find a 240v to [whatever voltage device it is] to eliminate
this step. I think I'd look for a comparable device which operates from the
local power, myself. I have carried a lot of US devices through Europe, and
used transformers to power them; but I was bringing them back.... Where I
could, I bought replacement wall warts for the ones I used most regularly.
If you're actually living there, that would be an option.
jak |
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|
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John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:52 am Post subject:
Re: DANGER: Charge an american device in Europe |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:57:14 -0600, "jakdedert"
<jdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: | NSM wrote:
andreas.manoli@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105782097.489841.247200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hi,
I live in Europe where the electricity is 240V and 50HZ
I just bought a (WAHL) hair trimmer from the USA. The battery charger
for the hair trimmer is made for USA (input 120VAC, 60HZ, 5W) and
has ... b) Buy a transformer for the transformer! (transform 240V AC
to 120V AC) . The issue here is bulk, overheating and different
frequencies.
120 VAC will smoke the charger. You need a 240 V to 100 V transformer
to allow for the lower frequency. Trust me, I've lost more than my
share.
N
Why 100v? He specifically stated that it was a 120v appliance from America.
|
---
Depending on the inductance designed to be seen looking into the
primary at 60 Hz, a 50 Hz signal could allow enough current to flow
into the primary to saturate the core. In order to keep the flux
density in the core the same at both frequencies, the voltage into the
primary must change in proportion to the change in frequency:
flo 50Hz
Eplo = Ephi ----- = 120V ------ = 100V
fhi 60Hz
Now, of course, the charger may not work since it'll only have 100V on
its input, but that's another story!-)
---
--
John Fields |
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NSM
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:20 am Post subject:
Re: DANGER: Charge an american device in Europe |
|
|
"jakdedert" <jdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:c8DGd.19686$BP1.103@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
| Why 100v? He specifically stated that it was a 120v appliance from
America.
Devices made for the US market have barely enough iron at 60 Hz. At 50 Hz
they almost inevitably die. It's a fundamental law of electricity.
N |
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keith
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:08 am Post subject:
Re: double standards (was: charge an american device in Euro |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:00:29 -0500, Mark Jones wrote:
| Quote: | Reg Edwards wrote:
We've had quite enough of USA devices in Europe, particularly in Yugoslavia.
I've had quite enough "double standards" regardless of country.
|
Bullshit! That's the wonderful thing about standards... There are *SO*
many to choose from! ;-)
--
Keith |
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|
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Rich Grise
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:
Re: DANGER: Charge an american device in Europe |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:57:14 -0600, jakdedert wrote:
| Quote: | NSM wrote:
andreas.manoli@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105782097.489841.247200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hi,
I live in Europe where the electricity is 240V and 50HZ
I just bought a (WAHL) hair trimmer from the USA. The battery charger
for the hair trimmer is made for USA (input 120VAC, 60HZ, 5W) and
has ... b) Buy a transformer for the transformer! (transform 240V AC
to 120V AC) . The issue here is bulk, overheating and different
frequencies.
120 VAC will smoke the charger. You need a 240 V to 100 V transformer
to allow for the lower frequency. Trust me, I've lost more than my
share.
N
Why 100v? He specifically stated that it was a 120v appliance from America.
|
50/60 inductive reactance issue.
| Quote: | To the OP, as many have stated, yes, you need a 240v-120v transformer.
Possibly you can find a 240v to [whatever voltage device it is] to eliminate
this step. I think I'd look for a comparable device which operates from the
local power, myself.
|
To the OP - have you ever clarified if your "charger" is merely a wall
wart, or a stand with a cord and plug, or just exactly what? It makes a
significant difference, you know. If you have a stand with a wall wart
jack, just get a 240V wall wart with the same output. If it's a base with
just a cord and plug, you need either a step-down transformer or a new
base that accepts 240V.
I seriously doubt if running a 120V/60Hz charger at 120/50 will burn the
house down - just check it periodically for a few minutes, and if it gets
too hot, then go to plan B.
Good Luck!
Rich |
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Ken Taylor
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:12 am Post subject:
Re: American Only (was: charge an american device in Europe) |
|
|
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:41EC5570.576E959B@Hovnanian.com...
| Quote: | Interesting article in todays Wall Street Journal. It seems that
manufacturers are shipping equipment with region-specific power supplies
lately. It seems that want to prevent folks in Europe (and other places)
from taking advantage of the cheap US dollar and buying here instead of
at home.
They pointed out that although it is cheaper to build one version of a
product with a multi-voltage power supply (particularly if its an SMPS),
that lets too many people buy products on the gray market.
There was a sad example of a guy in Fiji who plugged in a brand new iMac
G5, only to discover that Apple no longer provided multi-voltage power
input.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
|
I wouldn't have thought that would be fatal - they use 240V mains there.
Ken |
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Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:16 am Post subject:
American Only (was: charge an american device in Europe) |
|
|
Interesting article in todays Wall Street Journal. It seems that
manufacturers are shipping equipment with region-specific power supplies
lately. It seems that want to prevent folks in Europe (and other places)
from taking advantage of the cheap US dollar and buying here instead of
at home.
They pointed out that although it is cheaper to build one version of a
product with a multi-voltage power supply (particularly if its an SMPS),
that lets too many people buy products on the gray market.
There was a sad example of a guy in Fiji who plugged in a brand new iMac
G5, only to discover that Apple no longer provided multi-voltage power
input.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain |
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Joel Kolstad
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:06 am Post subject:
Re: American Only (was: charge an american device in Europe) |
|
|
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:41EC5570.576E959B@Hovnanian.com...
| Quote: | They pointed out that although it is cheaper to build one version of a
product with a multi-voltage power supply (particularly if its an SMPS),
that lets too many people buy products on the gray market.
|
I figured that, while the quantities are higher if you're just building a
universal input switcher, the US/Japanese market alone is big enough that
the savings you get on saving a few pennies by needing lower voltage rated
transformers and other components still made it cheaper to build 110-125V
only versions of power supplies...
| Quote: | There was a sad example of a guy in Fiji who plugged in a brand new iMac
G5, only to discover that Apple no longer provided multi-voltage power
input.
|
It'd be surprising if he blew more than just the power supply.
Disappointing, yes, but not _too_ spendy to fix.
If the manufacturers really are trying to use this tactic to reduce gray
market sales, while it probably will be somewhat effective, hard core users
will just buy inexpensive voltage conversion transformers. Additionally,
manufacturers will to some degree be shooting themselves in the foot, since
it's primarily the 'first tier' manufacturers who have such sophisticated
marketing plans in place anyway, and many consumers will start looking at
'second tier' alternatives that will then have universal input power
supplies anyway. (I.e., sure, Apple could be successful at this since
they're the only company making Macs, but not PC companies...)
It would be really evil if the electronics started sensing the line
frequency and refused to operate on, e.g., 50Hz if the product were destined
for a 60Hz country.
---Joel Kolstad |
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Rich Grise
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:17 am Post subject:
Re: American Only (was: charge an american device in Europe) |
|
|
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:12:44 +1300, Ken Taylor wrote:
| Quote: | "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:41EC5570.576E959B@Hovnanian.com...
Interesting article in todays Wall Street Journal. It seems that
manufacturers are shipping equipment with region-specific power supplies
lately. It seems that want to prevent folks in Europe (and other places)
from taking advantage of the cheap US dollar and buying here instead of
at home.
They pointed out that although it is cheaper to build one version of a
product with a multi-voltage power supply (particularly if its an SMPS),
that lets too many people buy products on the gray market.
There was a sad example of a guy in Fiji who plugged in a brand new iMac
G5, only to discover that Apple no longer provided multi-voltage power
input.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
I wouldn't have thought that would be fatal - they use 240V mains there.
It's fatal for a 120V-only power supply. =:-O |
Cheers!
Rich |
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jakdedert
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:24 am Post subject:
Re: DANGER: Charge an american device in Europe |
|
|
NSM wrote:
| Quote: | "jakdedert" <jdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:c8DGd.19686$BP1.103@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Why 100v? He specifically stated that it was a 120v appliance from
America.
Devices made for the US market have barely enough iron at 60 Hz. At
50 Hz they almost inevitably die. It's a fundamental law of
electricity.
From experience...you're just wrong. There may be some devices which will |
smoke from 60 vs. 50 Hz, but I would guess they are in the distinct
minority.
Do you have some direct experience which supports you contention?
jak
> N |
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Jerry G.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:58 am Post subject:
Re: DANGER: Charge an american device in Europe |
|
|
I myself have had this experience. I have also had clients have the same
experience. This is if you take an American device using a power
transformer, and use it on 50 Hz, when it was designed for 60 Hz only. At 50
Hz the unit will run hotter. If the transformer is working at near to its
capacity at 60 Hz, when working at 50 Hz, it will run very hot. The lower
the mains frequency, the hotter it will run.
If you have a transformer that is designed to work at 50 Hz, and it is run
on 60 Hz, it will not heat up as much. In fact, it may run more efficiently
at a higher mains frequency. I will certainly run a bit cooler, and may have
a longer life span.
Some types of switching power supplies are also critical to the mains
frequency. These are the ones that are using an input voltage multiplier
circuit in them. If the mains frequency is lowered, its efficiency will be
effected.
--
Jerry G.
=====
"jakdedert" <jdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2VBHd.46367$Zv5.2453@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
NSM wrote:
| Quote: | "jakdedert" <jdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:c8DGd.19686$BP1.103@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Why 100v? He specifically stated that it was a 120v appliance from
America.
Devices made for the US market have barely enough iron at 60 Hz. At
50 Hz they almost inevitably die. It's a fundamental law of
electricity.
From experience...you're just wrong. There may be some devices which will |
smoke from 60 vs. 50 Hz, but I would guess they are in the distinct
minority.
Do you have some direct experience which supports you contention?
jak
> N |
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NSM
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:27 am Post subject:
Re: DANGER: Charge an american device in Europe |
|
|
"jakdedert" <jdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2VBHd.46367$Zv5.2453@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
| From experience...you're just wrong. There may be some devices which will
| smoke from 60 vs. 50 Hz, but I would guess they are in the distinct
| minority.
|
| Do you have some direct experience which supports you contention?
I can mail you some if you will pay for S&H. I first became aware of this
when we started importing Radio Shack Model I's into NZ which has nominally
230 VAC 50 Hz. Their little power supplies all died, which we tracked down
to running them at 115 VAC 50 Hz. Running them on 100 VAC led to a long life
and no tedious rewinding.
Unless it says 50/60 don't try it. You will regret it.
N |
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