| Author |
Message |
John Fields
Guest
|
 Posted:
Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:54 am Post subject:
Re: Voice annunciated test box circuitry |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:02:40 -0800, Robert Monsen
<rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | John Fields wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:13:34 -0800, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
and a partridge in a pair tree.
Actually, those winbond SPI voice chips are very cheap,
---
Got a part number and a price?
---
The ISD400x looks promising. It's $7 at futurlec
http://www.futurlec.com/ICSFOthers.shtml
I'm sure you can get it far cheaper in volume, although fururlec tends
to have alarmingly good prices for certain things. I'm guessing one
could sample a few as well. It's available it in PDIP, which is nice for
quick prototypes.
I reread the datasheet last night. It does have an internal amplifier
that can be used for a headset. The datasheet has a schematic for a
small system using it.
I was hoping they have a version with a prerecorded 'voice model' doing
digits, but, sadly, they don't appear to.
|
---
2ea HC164 @ 0.50........ $1.00
4ea HC163 @ 0.50........ $2.00
1ea 27C256.............. $1.50
8ea 1% 1/8W R........... $0.25
1ea LM386............... $0.75
-----
Total, Digi-Key......... $5.50
Approximately...
--
John Fields
|
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|
 |
Robert Monsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:09 am Post subject:
Re: Voice annunciated test box circuitry |
|
|
John Fields wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:02:40 -0800, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
John Fields wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:13:34 -0800, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
and a partridge in a pair tree.
Actually, those winbond SPI voice chips are very cheap,
---
Got a part number and a price?
---
The ISD400x looks promising. It's $7 at futurlec
http://www.futurlec.com/ICSFOthers.shtml
I'm sure you can get it far cheaper in volume, although fururlec tends
to have alarmingly good prices for certain things. I'm guessing one
could sample a few as well. It's available it in PDIP, which is nice for
quick prototypes.
I reread the datasheet last night. It does have an internal amplifier
that can be used for a headset. The datasheet has a schematic for a
small system using it.
I was hoping they have a version with a prerecorded 'voice model' doing
digits, but, sadly, they don't appear to.
---
2ea HC164 @ 0.50........ $1.00
4ea HC163 @ 0.50........ $2.00
1ea 27C256.............. $1.50
8ea 1% 1/8W R........... $0.25
1ea LM386............... $0.75
-----
Total, Digi-Key......... $5.50
Approximately...
|
Where is the DAC? Are you planning on using the EEPROM to bitbang a
filter to get the right sounds? I've seen tricks like that for the PIC.
Also, you don't include the tools for creating the sounds and burning
them into the eeprom. He only wants a few of them. The winbond chip has
a facility to do it itself.
You could probably clock the counters using an output from the uC. The
PIC chips, have the option of outputting the instruction clock on one of
their pins. However, I'm guessing that you would need to divide down the
output somewhat.
One advantage of the SPI interface for the winbond chip is that it's
probably less than a day of work to get working for both record and
send, and has a facility to cue at any point for either recording or
playback. I noticed you are using a counter to clock the eeprom. How are
you going to start at particular digit values? I suppose you could
preset the counters using microprocessor pins, but that means you need
extra uC pins and traces for that.
Maybe outputting a couple of high address pins from the microprocessor
would work. That way, you could divide the address space up into 16
chunks, and easily clock through any of them. All you would need is a
reset line for the counters, and a clock source.
--
Regards,
Robert Monsen
"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:00 am Post subject:
Re: Voice annunciated test box circuitry |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:09:21 -0800, Robert Monsen
<rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | John Fields wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:02:40 -0800, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
John Fields wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:13:34 -0800, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
and a partridge in a pair tree.
Actually, those winbond SPI voice chips are very cheap,
---
Got a part number and a price?
---
The ISD400x looks promising. It's $7 at futurlec
http://www.futurlec.com/ICSFOthers.shtml
I'm sure you can get it far cheaper in volume, although fururlec tends
to have alarmingly good prices for certain things. I'm guessing one
could sample a few as well. It's available it in PDIP, which is nice for
quick prototypes.
I reread the datasheet last night. It does have an internal amplifier
that can be used for a headset. The datasheet has a schematic for a
small system using it.
I was hoping they have a version with a prerecorded 'voice model' doing
digits, but, sadly, they don't appear to.
---
2ea HC164 @ 0.50........ $1.00
4ea HC163 @ 0.50........ $2.00
1ea 27C256.............. $1.50
8ea 1% 1/8W R........... $0.25
1ea LM386............... $0.75
-----
Total, Digi-Key......... $5.50
Approximately...
Where is the DAC? Are you planning on using the EEPROM to bitbang a
filter to get the right sounds? I've seen tricks like that for the PIC.
|
+------+
| Q7|----[128R]--+
| | |
| Q6|----[64R]---+
| | |
| Q5|----[32R]---+
| | |
| Q4|----[16R]---+
| | |
| Q3|----[8R]----+
| | |
| Q2|----[4R]----+
| | |
| Q1|----[2R]----+
| | |
| Q0|----[R]-----+---|+\
+------+ | >--+--
27C256 +---|-/ |
| |
+--[R1]---+
|
[R2]
|
GND
| Quote: | Also, you don't include the tools for creating the sounds and burning
them into the eeprom. He only wants a few of them. The winbond chip has
a facility to do it itself.
|
---
The tools for creating the sounds are a microphone, a PC sound card,
and whatever editing software came with the card or with Windows. I
already have an EPROM programmer but if the OP doesn't, oh, well...
He'll have to work out all the addresses and do a lot of bit-banging
on the SPI interface to set up the addresses to do the recording, so
he'll have to, essentially, build a programmer and program each chip
in real time unless he buys a Winbond programmer.
---
| Quote: | You could probably clock the counters using an output from the uC. The
PIC chips, have the option of outputting the instruction clock on one of
their pins. However, I'm guessing that you would need to divide down the
output somewhat.
One advantage of the SPI interface for the winbond chip is that it's
probably less than a day of work to get working for both record and
send, and has a facility to cue at any point for either recording or
playback. I noticed you are using a counter to clock the eeprom. How are
you going to start at particular digit values? I suppose you could
preset the counters using microprocessor pins, but that means you need
extra uC pins and traces for that.
|
---
You load the starting address of the digit to be spoken into the shift
registers with two µC IOs, then broadside load it into the counters
(and through the counters into the EPROM) and clock the counters 'n'
times until the digit data at those addresses has exited the EPROM.
---
| Quote: | Maybe outputting a couple of high address pins from the microprocessor
would work. That way, you could divide the address space up into 16
chunks, and easily clock through any of them. All you would need is a
reset line for the counters, and a clock source.
|
---
You don't need to reset the counters, you need to load them with the
address corresponding to the start of the audio data for the peculiar
digit needed and then clock them until the digit data has been played
back.
To make it work you only need three µC IOs; SERIAL DATA for the shift
register, ASYNCHRONOUS PARALLEL LOAD for the counter, and CLOCK for
both of them. With a little judicious programming and counter
selection, the clock line can be shared with the shift register.
--
John Fields
|
|
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|
|
Rich Grise
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Voice annunciated test box circuitry |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:00:25 -0600, John Fields wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:09:21 -0800, Robert Monsen
Where is the DAC? Are you planning on using the EEPROM to bitbang a
filter to get the right sounds? I've seen tricks like that for the PIC.
+------+
| Q7|----[128R]--+
| | |
| Q6|----[64R]---+
| | |
| Q5|----[32R]---+
| | |
| Q4|----[16R]---+
| | |
| Q3|----[8R]----+
| | |
| Q2|----[4R]----+
| | |
| Q1|----[2R]----+
| | |
| Q0|----[R]-----+---|+\
+------+ | >--+--
27C256 +---|-/ |
| |
+--[R1]---+
|
[R2]
|
GND
|
Wouldn't an R-2R ladder be less picky about values? Or wouldn't a DAC-08
or the like be cheaper than stuffing all those resistors?
Cheers!
Rich |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert Monsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Voice annunciated test box circuitry |
|
|
John Fields wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:09:21 -0800, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
John Fields wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:02:40 -0800, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
John Fields wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:13:34 -0800, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
and a partridge in a pair tree.
Actually, those winbond SPI voice chips are very cheap,
---
Got a part number and a price?
---
The ISD400x looks promising. It's $7 at futurlec
http://www.futurlec.com/ICSFOthers.shtml
I'm sure you can get it far cheaper in volume, although fururlec tends
to have alarmingly good prices for certain things. I'm guessing one
could sample a few as well. It's available it in PDIP, which is nice for
quick prototypes.
I reread the datasheet last night. It does have an internal amplifier
that can be used for a headset. The datasheet has a schematic for a
small system using it.
I was hoping they have a version with a prerecorded 'voice model' doing
digits, but, sadly, they don't appear to.
---
2ea HC164 @ 0.50........ $1.00
4ea HC163 @ 0.50........ $2.00
1ea 27C256.............. $1.50
8ea 1% 1/8W R........... $0.25
1ea LM386............... $0.75
-----
Total, Digi-Key......... $5.50
Approximately...
Where is the DAC? Are you planning on using the EEPROM to bitbang a
filter to get the right sounds? I've seen tricks like that for the PIC.
+------+
| Q7|----[128R]--+
| | |
| Q6|----[64R]---+
| | |
| Q5|----[32R]---+
| | |
| Q4|----[16R]---+
| | |
| Q3|----[8R]----+
| | |
| Q2|----[4R]----+
| | |
| Q1|----[2R]----+
| | |
| Q0|----[R]-----+---|+\
+------+ | >--+--
27C256 +---|-/ |
| |
+--[R1]---+
|
[R2]
|
GND
|
Your resistors are set up for Q0 outputting MSB. Do Windows sound
programs save bits this way? I've seen gang programmers can be set up to
reverse the order of bits.
Do you know what kind of fidelity you'll get with that setup? Not that
it matters much for digit output, but you want it to be intelligible.
| Quote: | Also, you don't include the tools for creating the sounds and burning
them into the eeprom. He only wants a few of them. The winbond chip has
a facility to do it itself.
---
The tools for creating the sounds are a microphone, a PC sound card,
and whatever editing software came with the card or with Windows. I
already have an EPROM programmer but if the OP doesn't, oh, well...
He'll have to work out all the addresses and do a lot of bit-banging
on the SPI interface to set up the addresses to do the recording, so
he'll have to, essentially, build a programmer and program each chip
in real time unless he buys a Winbond programmer.
---
|
Or, he could use a simple onboard programmer, and perhaps a simple uC
program to copy from one device to another using the analog ports. I
don't think you can gang-program the winbond chip, unfortunately, and it
doesn't look like the SPI interface allows programming the flash. It
really is designed to be a voice recorder playback toy.
| Quote: |
You could probably clock the counters using an output from the uC. The
PIC chips, have the option of outputting the instruction clock on one of
their pins. However, I'm guessing that you would need to divide down the
output somewhat.
One advantage of the SPI interface for the winbond chip is that it's
probably less than a day of work to get working for both record and
send, and has a facility to cue at any point for either recording or
playback. I noticed you are using a counter to clock the eeprom. How are
you going to start at particular digit values? I suppose you could
preset the counters using microprocessor pins, but that means you need
extra uC pins and traces for that.
---
You load the starting address of the digit to be spoken into the shift
registers with two µC IOs, then broadside load it into the counters
(and through the counters into the EPROM) and clock the counters 'n'
times until the digit data at those addresses has exited the EPROM.
---
Maybe outputting a couple of high address pins from the microprocessor
would work. That way, you could divide the address space up into 16
chunks, and easily clock through any of them. All you would need is a
reset line for the counters, and a clock source.
---
You don't need to reset the counters, you need to load them with the
address corresponding to the start of the audio data for the peculiar
digit needed and then clock them until the digit data has been played
back.
|
You could save the shift registers by using 4 bits to set the high
address bits, dividing your eeprom up into 16 equal sections. Program
the digits at those sections, set those bits, and perform a reset when
you want to start playing a section. It's a couple more uC pins, and
it's less flexible, obviously, but it saves the shift registers. That's
a buck!
| Quote: | To make it work you only need three µC IOs; SERIAL DATA for the shift
register, ASYNCHRONOUS PARALLEL LOAD for the counter, and CLOCK for
both of them. With a little judicious programming and counter
selection, the clock line can be shared with the shift register.
|
You can get the ISD4002 winbond chips from digikey for $5.08 each if you
buy 25.
You can get the 20 second verion (which is probably enough for 10
digits) for $3.27, although it may be more difficult to cue the output,
since it doesn't have an SPI interface.
There are also dedicated sound output chips that use external eeprom,
similar to your scheme, but they seem designed for higher end systems.
--
Regards,
Robert Monsen
"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert Monsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Voice annunciated test box circuitry |
|
|
Robert Monsen wrote:
| Quote: |
You can get the ISD4002 winbond chips from digikey for $5.08 each if you
buy 25.
You can get the 20 second verion (which is probably enough for 10
digits) for $3.27, although it may be more difficult to cue the output,
since it doesn't have an SPI interface.
|
This last bit is in error. I was looking at the european digikey catalog
by mistake (google took me there.) Those prices are in EUROs.
--
Regards,
Robert Monsen
"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Voice annunciated test box circuitry |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:18:53 -0800, Robert Monsen
<rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | John Fields wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:09:21 -0800, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
+------+
| Q7|----[128R]--+
| | |
| Q6|----[64R]---+
| | |
| Q5|----[32R]---+
| | |
| Q4|----[16R]---+
| | |
| Q3|----[8R]----+
| | |
| Q2|----[4R]----+
| | |
| Q1|----[2R]----+
| | |
| Q0|----[R]-----+---|+\
+------+ | >--+--
27C256 +---|-/ |
| |
+--[R1]---+
|
[R2]
|
GND
Your resistors are set up for Q0 outputting MSB.
|
---
It's an EPROM, so the bits can be weighted at the discretion of the
designer.
---
| Quote: | Do Windows sound
programs save bits this way?
|
---
Dunno, don't care. It's a concept, not a finished design. In any
case, reordering bits in a file is semi-trivial.
---
| Quote: | I've seen gang programmers can be set up to
reverse the order of bits.
|
---
Great.
---
| Quote: | Do you know what kind of fidelity you'll get with that setup? Not that
it matters much for digit output, but you want it to be intelligible.
|
---
Depends on the sampling frequency, and certainly as good as any of the
"cheap" winbond chips, but what do you mean by "fidelity"?
---
| Quote: | ---
You don't need to reset the counters, you need to load them with the
address corresponding to the start of the audio data for the peculiar
digit needed and then clock them until the digit data has been played
back.
You could save the shift registers by using 4 bits to set the high
address bits, dividing your eeprom up into 16 equal sections. Program
the digits at those sections, set those bits, and perform a reset when
you want to start playing a section. It's a couple more uC pins, and
it's less flexible, obviously, but it saves the shift registers. That's
a buck!
|
---
That's a good idea _and_ it would save a counter, (another 50 cents)
but, at the expense of 4 µC IOs.
---
| Quote: | You can get the ISD4002 winbond chips from digikey for $5.08 each if you
buy 25.
|
---
At 25 units, my scheme also gets cheaper...
---
| Quote: | You can get the 20 second verion (which is probably enough for 10
digits) for $3.27, although it may be more difficult to cue the output,
since it doesn't have an SPI interface.
|
---
The least expensive 20 second chip I can find, which they carry and
which you can buy in quantity 1, is the ISD1420P, and it goes for
$8.72. The 10 second ISD1110P goes for 6.98, but you'd have to send
it the 10 starting addresses and then clock it for just the right
amount of time so that it wouldn't overrun the digit boundaries. So
my counters go away, but the shift register comes back.
Using a cheap Eprom OTOH, at 500ms per digit, 5 seconds is enough, so
a 256k Eprom is just about right.
Sampling at 2f and assuming an upper limit of 3kHz and an 8 bit byte
for the audio source material requires 6000 bytes per second, or 3000
bytes per 500ms digit, for a total of 30,000 bytes. 8 bits per byte
times 30,000 bytes equals 240,000 bits.
---
| Quote: | There are also dedicated sound output chips that use external eeprom,
similar to your scheme, but they seem designed for higher end systems.
|
---
Mine _is_ the higher end system, scaled back for a mundane
application.
--
John Fields |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:23 pm Post subject:
Re: Voice annunciated test box circuitry |
|
|
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:34:51 GMT, Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:00:25 -0600, John Fields wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:09:21 -0800, Robert Monsen
Where is the DAC? Are you planning on using the EEPROM to bitbang a
filter to get the right sounds? I've seen tricks like that for the PIC.
+------+
| Q7|----[128R]--+
| | |
| Q6|----[64R]---+
| | |
| Q5|----[32R]---+
| | |
| Q4|----[16R]---+
| | |
| Q3|----[8R]----+
| | |
| Q2|----[4R]----+
| | |
| Q1|----[2R]----+
| | |
| Q0|----[R]-----+---|+\
+------+ | >--+--
27C256 +---|-/ |
| |
+--[R1]---+
|
[R2]
|
GND
Wouldn't an R-2R ladder be less picky about values? Or wouldn't a DAC-08
or the like be cheaper than stuffing all those resistors?
|
---
An R-2R ladder would require 17 resistors, so as a discrete
substitution it would be more than twice as expensive. Eight 5%
resistors (plenty good for this application) cost less than a quarter,
lots cheaper than a DAC-08.
Plus, take a look at
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Application_Notes/72999933AB6.pdf
--
John Fields |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mirach
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Voice annunciated test box circuitry |
|
|
Thanks Gentlemen..even though you lost me early on I find your
discussions facinating. I'll just stay out of the way :) |
|
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|
|
|
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