| Author |
Message |
Peter Hucker
Guest
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 Posted:
Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
LED brightness? |
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I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the surface in front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 15 degrees, but will light a larger area, therefore is giving off more light in total.
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.
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John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the surface in front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 15 degrees, but will light a larger area, therefore is giving off more light in total.
|
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
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Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
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|
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:12:53 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the surface in front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 15 degrees, but will light a larger area, therefore is giving off more light in total.
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
|
I was trying to go by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_intensity
But there are too many different units!
So what you're saying is the way they quote them in catalogues (mcd) is total light output, whereas luminance (in mcd/sq.m) is what I was thinking of?
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
Dan married one of a pair of identical twin girls. Less than a year later, he was in court filing for a divorce. "OK," the judge said, "Tell the court why you want a divorce."
"Well, your honor," Dan started, "Every once in a while my sister in law would come over for a visit, and because she and my wife are so identical looking, every once in a while I'd end up making love to her by mistake."
"Surely there must be some difference between the two women." the judge said.
"You'd better believe there is a difference, your honor. That's why I want the divorce." he replied.
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John Fields
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:46 am Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
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|
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:19:48 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:12:53 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the surface in front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 15 degrees, but will light a larger area, therefore is giving off more light in total.
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
I was trying to go by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_intensity
But there are too many different units!
So what you're saying is the way they quote them in catalogues (mcd) is total light output, whereas luminance (in mcd/sq.m) is what I was thinking of?
|
---
Yes.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
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Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:35 am Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
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On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:46:17 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:19:48 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:12:53 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the surface in front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 15 degrees, but will light a larger area, therefore is giving off more light in total.
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
I was trying to go by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_intensity
But there are too many different units!
So what you're saying is the way they quote them in catalogues (mcd) is total light output, whereas luminance (in mcd/sq.m) is what I was thinking of?
---
Yes.
|
Thanks, just changed to buying a completely different set :-)
Why is there so much difference in specs with LEDs? Aren't they all basically the same technology?
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
When all else fails... !@#$%^&* then read the instructions! |
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ehsjr
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:35 am Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
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Peter Hucker wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:46:17 -0000, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:19:48 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:12:53 -0000, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the
surface in front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with
a viewing angle of 15 degrees, but will light a larger area,
therefore is giving off more light in total.
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
I was trying to go by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_intensity
But there are too many different units!
So what you're saying is the way they quote them in catalogues (mcd)
is total light output, whereas luminance (in mcd/sq.m) is what I was
thinking of?
---
Yes.
Thanks, just changed to buying a completely different set :-)
Why is there so much difference in specs with LEDs? Aren't they all
basically the same technology?
|
That's a non sequitur. Tungsten filament incandescent lamps are
all basically the same technology, yet they come in many different
configurations. Same is true of LEDs, which come in various
colors, shapes, sizes, viewing angles, mcd ratings etc.
I suppose that manufacturers decide where they think there is,
or will be, a need, and make things with specs that meet the need.
That would result in the many different LEDs that are available.
Ed |
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Fritz Schlunder
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:1ljun19ho2m9a60vbg1m55hv7t2vfj5kt5@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the surface in
front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of |
15 degrees, but will light a larger area, therefore is giving off more light
in total.
| Quote: |
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
|
Uhh... No...
Candelas aren't a measure of total light output. Candelas are a measure of
lumens per steradian (a steradian being a solid angle measurement). Lumens
are a measure of total light output adjusted for human eye sensitivity
towards different wavelengths. Human eyeballs are vastly more sensitive to
555nm green photons than they are to say red or blue photons for example.
So... A one lumen white light source should in theory be able to light up a
whole room to approximately an equal amount of brightness as perceived by a
human eye as a one lumen blue light source, as a one lumen green light
source, as a one lumen red light source, etc. The one lumen green light
source doesn't have to be as electrically efficient (in terms of total
photons produced per joule input) however since the human eye doesn't need
as many green photons to appear equally bright as other colors.
Unfortunately the vast majority of LED manufacturer's don't yet rate their
LED product's output in lumens, instead they usually provide intensity in
millicandelas and also include a "viewing angle" which is normally defined
as twice the angle of half intensity (or in other words two phi one-half).
Sometimes instead they might give you just the angle of half intensity
instead (especially in the case of infrared LEDs). This is a most
unfortunate state of affairs, because it precludes highly accurate and fair
comparisons between products.
Anyway, the OP's assumption was in fact correct. A 100mcd LED with a
viewing angle of 30 degrees *should* produce more total light output than a
100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 15 degrees. This doesn't absolutely
always have to be true however, since it depends on the beam profile, and it
also depends on how accurate and truthful the manufacturer's specifications
are. By playing with the beam profile, it is possible to make a 30 degree
100mcd LED produce less total light output than a 100mcd 15 degree LED,
without lying in any way on the specifications, but in most cases the 30
degree product should be superior.
If you want the most total light output and highest efficiency product, go
for LEDs that have high mcd ratings as well as large viewing angle ratings.
Unfortunately manufacturer's and especially distributors often make mistakes
on their advertising (usually because distributors don't have a clue what
any of the various units mean either), further muddling the issue and making
accurate direct performance comparisons even more difficult. |
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|
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John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:43:07 -0700, "Fritz Schlunder"
<me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Uhh... No...
Candelas aren't a measure of total light output. Candelas are a measure of
lumens per steradian (a steradian being a solid angle measurement).
|
---
Yup.
---
| Quote: | Anyway, the OP's assumption was in fact correct.
|
---
Yup. Thanks for the correction.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
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Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 06:36:29 -0000, ehsjr <ehsjr@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Peter Hucker wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:46:17 -0000, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:19:48 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:12:53 -0000, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
I was trying to go by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_intensity
But there are too many different units!
So what you're saying is the way they quote them in catalogues (mcd)
is total light output, whereas luminance (in mcd/sq.m) is what I was
thinking of?
---
Yes.
Thanks, just changed to buying a completely different set :-)
Why is there so much difference in specs with LEDs? Aren't they all
basically the same technology?
That's a non sequitur. Tungsten filament incandescent lamps are
all basically the same technology, yet they come in many different
configurations. Same is true of LEDs, which come in various
colors, shapes, sizes, viewing angles, mcd ratings etc.
I suppose that manufacturers decide where they think there is,
or will be, a need, and make things with specs that meet the need.
That would result in the many different LEDs that are available.
|
The weird thing is that the ones that are 100 times brighter do not use 100 times more power.
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
A blind man was standing on the corner with his dog when the dog raised his leg and went on the man's trouser leg.
The man reached in his pocket and took out a doggie biscuit.
A busybody who had been watching ran up to him and said, "You shouldn't do that. He'll never learn anything if you reward him when he does something like that!"
The blind man retorted, "I'm not rewarding him. I'm just trying to find his mouth so that I can kick him in the ass." |
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Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:43:07 -0000, Fritz Schlunder <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:1ljun19ho2m9a60vbg1m55hv7t2vfj5kt5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the surface in
front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of
15 degrees, but will light a larger area, therefore is giving off more light
in total.
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
Uhh... No...
Candelas aren't a measure of total light output. Candelas are a measure of
lumens per steradian (a steradian being a solid angle measurement). Lumens
are a measure of total light output adjusted for human eye sensitivity
towards different wavelengths. Human eyeballs are vastly more sensitive to
555nm green photons than they are to say red or blue photons for example.
So... A one lumen white light source should in theory be able to light up a
whole room to approximately an equal amount of brightness as perceived by a
human eye as a one lumen blue light source, as a one lumen green light
source, as a one lumen red light source, etc. The one lumen green light
source doesn't have to be as electrically efficient (in terms of total
photons produced per joule input) however since the human eye doesn't need
as many green photons to appear equally bright as other colors.
Unfortunately the vast majority of LED manufacturer's don't yet rate their
LED product's output in lumens, instead they usually provide intensity in
millicandelas and also include a "viewing angle" which is normally defined
as twice the angle of half intensity (or in other words two phi one-half).
Sometimes instead they might give you just the angle of half intensity
instead (especially in the case of infrared LEDs). This is a most
unfortunate state of affairs, because it precludes highly accurate and fair
comparisons between products.
Anyway, the OP's assumption was in fact correct. A 100mcd LED with a
viewing angle of 30 degrees *should* produce more total light output than a
100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 15 degrees. This doesn't absolutely
always have to be true however, since it depends on the beam profile, and it
also depends on how accurate and truthful the manufacturer's specifications
are. By playing with the beam profile, it is possible to make a 30 degree
100mcd LED produce less total light output than a 100mcd 15 degree LED,
without lying in any way on the specifications, but in most cases the 30
degree product should be superior.
If you want the most total light output and highest efficiency product, go
for LEDs that have high mcd ratings as well as large viewing angle ratings.
Unfortunately manufacturer's and especially distributors often make mistakes
on their advertising (usually because distributors don't have a clue what
any of the various units mean either), further muddling the issue and making
accurate direct performance comparisons even more difficult.
|
Oh great. Now I have two completely different answers, I'll have to buy some of each and see what they really do.
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
When you're having a really bad day and it seems like people are trying to piss you off, remember it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 to extend your middle finger. |
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Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:43:07 -0000, Fritz Schlunder <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:1ljun19ho2m9a60vbg1m55hv7t2vfj5kt5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the surface in
front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of
15 degrees, but will light a larger area, therefore is giving off more light
in total.
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
Uhh... No...
Candelas aren't a measure of total light output. Candelas are a measure of
lumens per steradian (a steradian being a solid angle measurement). Lumens
are a measure of total light output adjusted for human eye sensitivity
towards different wavelengths. Human eyeballs are vastly more sensitive to
555nm green photons than they are to say red or blue photons for example.
So... A one lumen white light source should in theory be able to light up a
whole room to approximately an equal amount of brightness as perceived by a
human eye as a one lumen blue light source, as a one lumen green light
source, as a one lumen red light source, etc. The one lumen green light
source doesn't have to be as electrically efficient (in terms of total
photons produced per joule input) however since the human eye doesn't need
as many green photons to appear equally bright as other colors.
Unfortunately the vast majority of LED manufacturer's don't yet rate their
LED product's output in lumens, instead they usually provide intensity in
millicandelas and also include a "viewing angle" which is normally defined
as twice the angle of half intensity (or in other words two phi one-half).
Sometimes instead they might give you just the angle of half intensity
instead (especially in the case of infrared LEDs). This is a most
unfortunate state of affairs, because it precludes highly accurate and fair
comparisons between products.
Anyway, the OP's assumption was in fact correct. A 100mcd LED with a
viewing angle of 30 degrees *should* produce more total light output than a
100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 15 degrees. This doesn't absolutely
always have to be true however, since it depends on the beam profile, and it
also depends on how accurate and truthful the manufacturer's specifications
are. By playing with the beam profile, it is possible to make a 30 degree
100mcd LED produce less total light output than a 100mcd 15 degree LED,
without lying in any way on the specifications, but in most cases the 30
degree product should be superior.
If you want the most total light output and highest efficiency product, go
for LEDs that have high mcd ratings as well as large viewing angle ratings.
Unfortunately manufacturer's and especially distributors often make mistakes
on their advertising (usually because distributors don't have a clue what
any of the various units mean either), further muddling the issue and making
accurate direct performance comparisons even more difficult.
|
I think you're right actually - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_intensity tells us that candelas are perceived power in one direction. Hmmm it made sense the other way too - there are too many bloomin units!
Well if you're right, then I've just ordered the wrong ones. I'll go order the right ones and see for myself which is really brighter.
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
The scientific theory I Iike best is that the rings of Saturn are composed entirely of lost airline Luggage. -- Mark Russell |
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Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:14:57 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:43:07 -0700, "Fritz Schlunder"
me@privacy.net> wrote:
Uhh... No...
Candelas aren't a measure of total light output. Candelas are a measure of
lumens per steradian (a steradian being a solid angle measurement).
---
Yup.
---
Anyway, the OP's assumption was in fact correct.
---
Yup. Thanks for the correction.
|
[grumbles at £8 extra spending]
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
Confucius say man who sniff coke, drown. |
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John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:33:05 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:14:57 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:43:07 -0700, "Fritz Schlunder"
me@privacy.net> wrote:
Uhh... No...
Candelas aren't a measure of total light output. Candelas are a measure of
lumens per steradian (a steradian being a solid angle measurement).
---
Yup.
---
Anyway, the OP's assumption was in fact correct.
---
Yup. Thanks for the correction.
[grumbles at £8 extra spending]
|
---
Just goes to show ya, don't believe what anyone tells you.
Try it for yourself and find out what's real.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
|
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|
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Steve Noll
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:12:53 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:02:01 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase bright LEDs, but am confused by the specs.
Am I correct in the following assumption?
A 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 30 degrees will light the surface in front of it at the same brightness as a 100mcd LED with a viewing angle of 15 degrees, but will light a larger area, therefore is giving off more light in total.
---
No.
100 millicandelas is the total light output, so the area illuminated
by the LED with the larger beamwidth will be dimmer.
|
Do the manufacturer's specs actually say that the LED outputs are
"total output" ?
CIE develops international specs for measuring visible LEDs. CIE
127-1997 defines measuring LED output, termed "Average LED Intensity",
in (milli) candelas. I make these measurements at the day job. It
requires using an extremely accurate ($) photopic detector with a 1cm
dia round aperture either 100mm or 316mm in front of the LED, which
is equivalent to capturing 6.5-degrees or 2-degrees of the central LED
output. Obviously, this is not total output, nor is it intended to
simulate that. More often than not one isn't concerned about the
total output of a visible LED, but how bright it looks when seen by
eye at a reasonable distance away. CIE is working on a standard for
integrated spheres for use in total output measurement. I believe it
is due out in a few months.
Anyway... the point being you really have to be careful about LED
output specs. If possible buy a few and try 'em in your application.
Sad to say that I've personally seen LED manufacturers using
antiquated equipment to make their measurements, use integrating
spheres to make measurements in units they weren't calibrated for, and
even just make up data. I wouldn't go solely by their printed specs.
Steve Noll | The Used Equipment Dealer Directory:
| http://www.big-list.com
| Peltier Information Directory:
| http://www.peltier-info.com |
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Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject:
Re: LED brightness? |
|
|
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:06:11 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:33:05 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:14:57 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:43:07 -0700, "Fritz Schlunder"
me@privacy.net> wrote:
Uhh... No...
Candelas aren't a measure of total light output. Candelas are a measure of
lumens per steradian (a steradian being a solid angle measurement).
---
Yup.
---
Anyway, the OP's assumption was in fact correct.
---
Yup. Thanks for the correction.
[grumbles at £8 extra spending]
---
Just goes to show ya, don't believe what anyone tells you.
Try it for yourself and find out what's real.
|
I am doing. Seen as I'm about to buy a few thousand of the things, I'd rather buy a large selection of single units first to make sure.
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
"I have left orders to be awakened at any time in case of national emergency, even if I'm in a cabinet meeting." - Ronald Reagan |
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