Use of Extension Cord

Electronics
Circuits, theory, electrons and discussions.

FAQ

Memberlist

Profile

Use of Extension Cord
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next

Electronics Forum Index -> Basics

Author

Message

Peter Hucker
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Use of Extension Cord

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:42:48 -0000, Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Quote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

Hmmmm. Taking this house as an example, I've got:

30 amp x2 for outlets.
5 amp x2 for lights.
15 amp for the water heater.
15 amp for the garage.
15 amp for the shower.
1 spare slot.

Total is currently at 80 amps. The electricity boards fuse is also 80 amps. I can do what the hell I like in MY fusebox (it's none of their business), but I'm not allowed to fiddle with the meter (they really don't like people getting free power) or the 80 amp fuse which is on their side of the meter. If I added loads more circuits, it's no problem, but if I go over 80 amps at any time and blow their fuse, they would charge me to come out and replace it.

Gee, over here the watt-hour meter is connected first, followed by
the service disconnect breaker that is used to protect everything
downstream, and to provide a easy way to disconnect all power in an
emergency.

If I needed to disconnect everything, I'd use the main switch on the fusebox. I don't suppose it really matters if the fuse is before ofr after the meter, as if the house overloads the total limit, the fuse will blow and protect the meter either way. The only differences being if the meter shorted out it wouldn't cause a problem, and if they need to change or repair the meter, they can simply pull the fuse.

My old neighbours house was old and had wiring added to it as an afterthought (the house was presumably built before electricity!) The wire came in overhead(!) into the eaves of his roof. Anyway the wire's attachment to the roof came detached, and with the wire swinging in the wind, something came loose inside his roof. In the middle of the night I heard the transformer on the pole over the road sparking like mad. Shortly afterwards there was smoke and the sound of breaking glass, followed quickly by the neighbours running out of the house. Apparently a fire had started in his roof, smashed the glass in the attic window, which woke them. So he called the fire brigade who arrived promptly, and did absolutely nothing. That's right nothing. They didn't have the key to turn off the power on the transformer pole (tsalk about incompetant). They had to wait an hour (!) for the electricity board to come out and disconnect it before they could put the fire out. By which point,
needless to say, there was not much left of his house! If that had been my house I would have been up there cutting that stupid wire with a pair of shears, but I think he saw it as a good excuse to claim on the insurance. His house looked a hell of a lot better after he got a big payout! I told him to sue the fire brigade, he told me he didn't care as long as the insurance paid out. They could sue if they liked.

Quote:

My meter and main service panel are on a pole by my
driveway, with underground feeds to three buildings.

I can't say I'd like just anyone to have the ability to switch off the power to my house.

Quote:

The garage has
it's own 100 amp 240 Volt panel with 12 breaker positions, the tool shed
has a 20 amp 240 volt panel with four breaker positions and the main
house has a 150 Amp 240 Volt panel with 20 breaker positions. The
cottage has two breaker boxes. One for the hot water heater that is in
an attached shed

Your hot water is heated in another building?

Quote:

and another 60 Amp 240V breaker box with 4 breaker
positions for the lights and AC. There are nine breaker boxes all
together, and I don't need to list them all. One more will be added
when I can finally afford a new generator with an automatic transfer
switch.

Christ almighty. You could power NASA with that lot!

Quote:

It doesn't make sense to me. Why not charge the correct price in the first place? Our companies simply change the rates every so often.

The price is set by the government, and is changed avery couple
years. The fuel costs change daily and are averaged out for the month
and added on. The other method is to set the rate higher than it should
be, and then when the actual costs exceed the limit to raise them a
fixed percentage which doesn't reflect the actual costs as well.

That's weird. Why are the government setting anything?

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

__________
_.='"----.._ `""--.._
_.'.-'\\ () \``""-.`"-. __
_.'/ '--' '-----[] .-'.-' .-' `'-'` /
_..--""``` _, _, _, _, _ LI [__] \
.' .-'''-. / // // // / [_] .-'''-. #### '-.
/ / _ \ '-, / '-, / .----. / _ \ \
| | (_) | /_/ /_/ '----'|| (_) | ____..'
'--'\ / '===================' \ /'=='
`-...-` `-...-'

Michael A. Terrell
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Use of Extension Cord

Peter Hucker wrote:

Quote:

Well, the main breaker box is in a bedroom. If the house was on fire
I'd rather go to the service disconnect in the driveway that into a
burning building.

Quote:

A lot of homes still use overhead service drops in the U.S., but it
is up to the home owner to report any damage so that it can be repaired.
Also, the meter readers can report anything that doesn't look right to
them. As far as what you described, its not likely to happen here
because the primary of the pole pigs are individually fused in most
areas so that if the drop shorts the fuse blows. Another advantage to
serving only a couple homes per transformer.

Quote:

I can't say I'd like just anyone to have the ability to switch off the power to my house.

Its required by local code. Its also against the law to tamper with
the service disconnect by anyone other than the home owner, the utility
company, or emergency services. If a house is on fire the Propane and
electricity are shut down but the first emergency crew to arrive rather
than having to wait for the electric company to get there. Once in a
while they can't get to the disconnect quickly because someone has
padlocked and it takes time to cut the lock or the fire has spread and
is blocking access. Mine is 50 feet from the main house, and 20 feet
from the metal four car garage building.

Quote:

Your hot water is heated in another building?

No, the heater is in the corner of the one bedroom cottage in the
bathroom but the breaker box for it is in an attached potting shed.
That heater has a manual switch to provide hot water only when its
needed. The three bedroom house has another water heater as well, but
it is on a timer and is only on for an hour each day.

Quote:

Christ almighty. You could power NASA with that lot!

There are six buildings on the property, and each has its own breaker
box. You haven't seen NASA. They could power a whole town with what
they use during a launch at the cape. BTW, I built custom telemetry
equipment for NASA when I worked at Microdyne.

Quote:

That's weird. Why are the government setting anything?

To keep them from charging whatever they think they can get away
with.

--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

John Fields
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Use of Extension Cord

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 23:49:28 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:

Quote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:17:28 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:29:40 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:18:03 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:14:42 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

ARGH! You watch adverts? You nee a spam filter on your TV set.

---
I watch what I please and if I don't like it I mute it. Simple.

You remembered this one.

---
Yes, dumbass, because I liked it.

Even though it was muted? Either you have exceptional hearing, or your mute needs repairing.

---
I _do_ have exceptional hearing, and muting comes _after_ the fact.
If I don't don't like what I hear, I mute it. If I do, I don't.

So far you've been lucky.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?
---

Quote:

Remove the the then. [Grammatical appallingness may be deliberate, it may not.]

---
Grammar has nothing to do with it. Gratuitous insults do, you
miserable piece of shit.

Er.... you tell me not to insult, then insult me in the same sentence?

---
Yes, of course. Your insults are gratuitous, while mine are
retaliatory.

You started the insults first, and they were a lot stronger.

---
You're a God Damned liar.

The insults started with your America bashing.

Had you not decided to take that route I would have left you alone
but, since you did, I felt compelled to show you up for the phony
that you are.

So far so good.
---

Quote:

And you are neither, and nothing?

I have no religion, yes.

---
Ergo, you have no grounding and everything ends with you?
Can you build a flower? Or a lizard? Or anything with life in it?

No. All you can do is make excuses for your impotence and try to
convince all the rest of us that we should be just like you.

Losers.

Fuck you, pigshit, mine are headed for the stars.
---

Quote:

Don't assume; do the math.

I don't need to.

---
Yes, you do.

No I don't.

---
You mean you _can't_?

I mean I can't be bothered.

---
You mean you can't? Simple.
---

Quote:

---
They aren't, but when you read something as blatant as "Blow me"
and tag it as innuendo, that points out how little you know about
the language.
---

Quote:

And generates waste heat in the process. What, do you think you can
compress a gas until it turns into a liquid for free?

No, but the waste won't be as much as the heat movced, unless it's a really crap AC.

---
Prove it. Show me some data.

That would involve me not being lazy. But here you go.....

1055 joules = 1 BTU (you're using BRITISH units! Get with the times and go metric ffs)

1 joule = 1 watt second
Therefore 3600 joules = 1 watt hour
Therefore 3.4 BTU = 1 watt hour

SEER (seasonal energy efficiency ratio) = BTU/watt hours

A good AC is rated as 18 SEER, which means it moves 18 BTU per watt hour consumed.
Or 5.29 watt hours moved for each watt hour consumed.
Even older inefficient ACs are 6 SEER, which move 1.76 watt hours for each watt hour consumed.

So I was correct in assuming ACs use less than heaters.

---
Really? Then think about this for a while: Electric heaters have no
SEER, because all the energy used is turned into heat. That makes
them _inherently_ more efficient than air conditioners.
---

Quote:

Any electricity used is due to inefficiency (like with a lightbulb).

---
No, the waste heat generated is due to the inefficiency of the
_process_. You really ought to stick with something you know
something about if you don't want to end up with egg on your face.
Oh, but wait... what would that be??? So far, all you seem to be
good at is creating confusion.

My refridgerator uses fuck all power.

---
That's because it's enclosing a very small volume and has much
better insulation than most houses do.

BTW, there's no 'd' in refrigerator.

There's a d in fridge.

---
Then write 'fridge' instead of 'refridgerator'
---

Quote:

That's just stupid. If you don't know why, that's even worse.

It's not stupid, it was a hint that Americans are not efficient - look at your gas guzzlers.

---
It certainly is stupid, and gas-guzzlers have nothing to do with it.

They have everything todo with it. Go look up some stats on pollution per head from different countries.

---
No dumbass, gas-guzzling has nothing to do with it, and from what I
see on the street, there aren't huge numbers of gas-guzzlers around.
What's doing it is that about 80% of the 200 million of us are
driving long distances every day. That'll probably change as gas
prices increase and many more of us will be able to work from home,
as I do now.

You should try commuting here. Our "government" puts 400% (!) tax on petrol.

---
Sorry 'bout that, we don't have that problem...
---

Quote:

And, anyway, the jury's still out as to whether CO2's a pollutant or not.

CO2 isn't the worst thing out of an exhaust, although newer cars do pollute less. (No I'm not convinced about the greenhouse effect either)

You're implying that because we have 200A services our (say)
refrigerators run less efficienly that yours do because you only
have 80 amp services? It's just the other way around moron.

I didn't imply that at all.

---
Then what were you struggling to say?

I wasn't saying anything, it was a joke.

---
Uh-huh, sure it was.
---

Quote:

Since your 80 amp services have smaller diameter cable in them than
our 200 amp services do, their higher resistance causes higher
losses due to increased power dissipation and heating of the cable.

Do the math.

I have no idea what diameter cable we have.

---
Then you shouldn't be saying that a 200A service is less efficient
than an 80A one is.

I didn't. I said it suggested you could be less efficient. You have the ability to consume vast amounts of electricity in the home, or are at least expecting to do so.

---
More bullshit.

That's the same as saying that because I have vast amounts of money
and the ability to be extravegant that I'm expecting to be.
---

Quote:

That's up to the electric board.
It's up to them to weigh up the cost of thicker cable versus more heating.
Maybe it defrosts the water pipes in winter?

---
More bullshit. You don't know what you're talking about so you try
to blame your ignorance on the electric board.

You said our cables were inefficient. And I find it hard to beleive the electricity board hasn't worked this out. How do you think they came up with the voltage for the national grid pylons? It's down to cost of cable thickness, heating losses, height of pylons, etc.

---
Learn to read, moron, no one was talking about your grid.

What I said was that since your domestic service is limited to 80
amps and mine to 200, yours will have smaller diameter wire in it
than mine.

Such being the case, the resistance in your service will be higher
than mine and, for the same load on both systems, yours will heat up
more, throwing that energy away, making it less efficient than mine.
---

Quote:

The largest one has a starting current of 129 amps and a running
current of 25 amps, the next largest a starting current of 61 amps
and a running current of 13 amps and the smallest one probably about
50 amps and ten amps, all on a single phase 240V service.

How often are they on?

---
What the fuck is it to you?

It has everything to do with your power consumption, which is what we are discussing.

---
No, we're discussing efficiency, not how much power I use.

I was trying to establish how much power you used to run your AC.

---
Assume a running power factor of .9 and use the data I've already
given you to work it out.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

Peter Hucker
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:16 am Post subject: Re: Use of Extension Cord

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:32:59 -0000, Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Quote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

If I needed to disconnect everything, I'd use the main switch on the fusebox. I don't suppose it really matters if the fuse is before ofr after the meter, as if the house overloads the total limit, the fuse will blow and protect the meter either way. The only differences being if the meter shorted out it wouldn't cause a problem, and if they need to change or repair the meter, they can simply pull the fuse.

Well, the main breaker box is in a bedroom. If the house was on fire
I'd rather go to the service disconnect in the driveway that into a
burning building.

Same here - I think the electricity board can disconnect a house on the pole or substation. But it needs the padlock key. Do you ever get kids turning it off for fun?

Quote:

Same here. The thing had been hanging loose for some time. I'd pointed it out to him (I used to do his gardening), but he didn't seem too bothered. Oops!

Quote:

Also, the meter readers can report anything that doesn't look right to
them. As far as what you described, its not likely to happen here
because the primary of the pole pigs are individually fused in most
areas so that if the drop shorts the fuse blows. Another advantage to
serving only a couple homes per transformer.

Apparently there is no fuse on that transformer. The electric board said it wuould be an unnecessary expense (rolls eyes).

Quote:

I can't say I'd like just anyone to have the ability to switch off the power to my house.

Its required by local code. Its also against the law to tamper with
the service disconnect by anyone other than the home owner, the utility
company, or emergency services. If a house is on fire the Propane and
electricity are shut down but the first emergency crew to arrive rather
than having to wait for the electric company to get there. Once in a
while they can't get to the disconnect quickly because someone has
padlocked and it takes time to cut the lock or the fire has spread and
is blocking access. Mine is 50 feet from the main house, and 20 feet
from the metal four car garage building.

Makes sense. Although I'd be concerned for kids messing around with my power. Or even electocuting themselves?

Quote:

Oh that explains it. I thought this was your house, shed, and garage.

Quote:

and each has its own breaker
box. You haven't seen NASA. They could power a whole town with what
they use during a launch at the cape.

I can beleive it.

Quote:

BTW, I built custom telemetry
equipment for NASA when I worked at Microdyne.

I must be psychic :-)

Quote:

That's weird. Why are the government setting anything?

To keep them from charging whatever they think they can get away
with.

But they add their own bit? Or is that limited in some way?

Our lot seem to charge whatever they like, but I found a site that automatically works out how much every one of the 50 suppliers would charge, based on your current usage. It's a very odd system, as I can change "provider", but all I'm really doing is changing the meter reader and billing staff. The power comes from the same place.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

The Official MBA Handbook on business cards: Avoid overly pretentious job titles such as "Lord of the Realm, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India" or "Director of Corporate Planning."

Peter Hucker
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: Re: Use of Extension Cord

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:36:14 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Quote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 23:49:28 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:17:28 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:29:40 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:18:03 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:14:42 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

---
I watch what I please and if I don't like it I mute it. Simple.

You remembered this one.

---
Yes, dumbass, because I liked it.

Even though it was muted? Either you have exceptional hearing, or your mute needs repairing.

---
I _do_ have exceptional hearing, and muting comes _after_ the fact.
If I don't don't like what I hear, I mute it. If I do, I don't.

So far you've been lucky.

What, you're about to mute usenet?

Quote:

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

I don't even listen to the start of an advert, I press fast forward as soon as the break starts.

Quote:

Grammar has nothing to do with it. Gratuitous insults do, you
miserable piece of shit.

Er.... you tell me not to insult, then insult me in the same sentence?

---
Yes, of course. Your insults are gratuitous, while mine are
retaliatory.

You started the insults first, and they were a lot stronger.

---
You're a God Damned liar.

The insults started with your America bashing.

Had you not decided to take that route I would have left you alone
but, since you did, I felt compelled to show you up for the phony
that you are.

So far so good.

I make a passing comment or two, you write pointless fucking insults like this you fuckwit.

Quote:

And you are neither, and nothing?

I have no religion, yes.

---
Ergo, you have no grounding and everything ends with you?
Can you build a flower? Or a lizard? Or anything with life in it?

No I cannot, neither can some makey up being.

Quote:

No. All you can do is make excuses for your impotence and try to
convince all the rest of us that we should be just like you.

Losers.

Fuck you, pigshit, mine are headed for the stars.

In English?

Quote:

Yes, you do.

No I don't.

---
You mean you _can't_?

I mean I can't be bothered.

---
You mean you can't? Simple.

Can't what? It's fallen off the snipper now. If you mean the AC efficiency, it's down there.

Quote:

I know the basics of what they do. Heating the house has to
generate that heat. An AC just MOVES the heat.

I wrote this part, it needs two >, upgrade your software.

---
Blow me.

More innuendo. Why are most American phrases sexually orientated?

---
They aren't, but when you read something as blatant as "Blow me"
and tag it as innuendo, that points out how little you know about
the language.

It's not a language, it's just warped English.

Quote:

What I wrote earlier was that an AC would use less power than a heater for a given temperature change of the house. Which was correct, by a factor of up to 5.29.

Quote:

My point was the English language is wrong. Fridge is short for refridgerator. Adding a d in one and not the other is illogical.

Quote:

It certainly is stupid, and gas-guzzlers have nothing to do with it.

They have everything todo with it. Go look up some stats on pollution per head from different countries.

---
No dumbass, gas-guzzling has nothing to do with it, and from what I
see on the street, there aren't huge numbers of gas-guzzlers around.
What's doing it is that about 80% of the 200 million of us are
driving long distances every day. That'll probably change as gas
prices increase and many more of us will be able to work from home,
as I do now.

You should try commuting here. Our "government" puts 400% (!) tax on petrol.

---
Sorry 'bout that, we don't have that problem...

I see Americans complaining about gas costs all the time.

Quote:

Yip.

Quote:

If you didn't want to spend loads of money, you wouldn't make the effort to earn it.

Quote:

I did. It was to explain that the electricity board most likely have worked out the economics of the house supply wire thickness, just as they have with the national grid.

Quote:

What I said was that since your domestic service is limited to 80
amps and mine to 200, yours will have smaller diameter wire in it
than mine.

It might, it might not. I have never measured it. For all I know there may be a 200 amp wire in there, but they don't allow us to use more than 80 as that's all they have allowed for in the transformers.

Quote:

Probably not a significant amount.

Quote:

What the fuck is it to you?

It has everything to do with your power consumption, which is what we are discussing.

---
No, we're discussing efficiency, not how much power I use.

I was trying to establish how much power you used to run your AC.

---
Assume a running power factor of .9 and use the data I've already
given you to work it out.

I don't know what your weather is like, how cool you like you house etc.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

.--------------------.
| |
| Good Evening.... | .--.--.
| | .; .;|;. ;.
`-------------. ,---' .;_;' `;_;.
\| ; ;' `; ;
\ ;;'.--.___.--.`;;
;-( o )=( o )-;
( `--' | `--' )
\| . . |/
........... . .:::::. . .______
/ . '---` . '\
.' `. .' \
| ____,.- . | `.....' | _______ |
| ,-' \ /|\'' \.-- |
| / \.'\ /,'. \. - |
| /| ` `\ / \ |
| ,/ _ '/ '\ |
,-' ,-. |o '
/ '| | | | \
/ ,/| |o | \ `
| .' | |.' |. \ \
________/ .'____|________________________||__`. `__________
( \ ) / )
'-. '-. ( .-` .-`
'-. .-'--.__. .-.__.--`-. .-`
'-..' \--' : ~`:=,`- `..-`
\ .. \\ |`-'|`-, /
\\\\\\\) | |`-'/.'/
\)\)\\ `-' `-'
`

John Fields
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Use of Extension Cord

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:26:28 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:

Quote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:36:14 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 23:49:28 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:17:28 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:29:40 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:18:03 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:14:42 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

---
I watch what I please and if I don't like it I mute it. Simple.

You remembered this one.

---
Yes, dumbass, because I liked it.

Even though it was muted? Either you have exceptional hearing, or your mute needs repairing.

---
I _do_ have exceptional hearing, and muting comes _after_ the fact.
If I don't don't like what I hear, I mute it. If I do, I don't.

So far you've been lucky.

What, you're about to mute usenet?

---
No, I haven't plonked you yet.
---

Quote:

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

I don't even listen to the start of an advert, I press fast forward as soon as the break starts.

---
Your loss. Some ads are very clever.
---

Quote:

---
Whether you know it or not, your "passing comments" are little
insults designed to elicit no response, but to be continuously
absorbed by the insultee for the purpose of allowing you to have
your way with them as time goes by.
---

Quote:

And you are neither, and nothing?

I have no religion, yes.

---
Ergo, you have no grounding and everything ends with you?
Can you build a flower? Or a lizard? Or anything with life in it?

No I cannot, neither can some makey up being.

---
Your limitations are not a god's.
---

Quote:

No. All you can do is make excuses for your impotence and try to
convince all the rest of us that we should be just like you.

Losers.

Fuck you, pigshit, mine are headed for the stars.

In English?

---
In English, it's: "Fuck you, pigshit, mine are headed for the
stars."

What's the matter? you can't understand vague?
---

Quote:

---
It's American English. A dynamic, evolving language with words in
it like "OK", "Levi's", and "freedom", something most of you lot
have never had a taste of. Or wouldn't have, had it not been for
us.
---

Quote:

What I wrote earlier was that an AC would use less power than a heater for a given temperature change of the house. Which was correct, by a factor of up to 5.29.

---
Regardless of what you wrote earlier, you're still wrong.

Think about it this way:

If it takes a given amount of energy to raise the temperature of one
pound of water one degree Fahrenheit, and it takes the same amount
of energy to lower the temperature of one pound of water one degree
Fahrenheit, but it takes a little extra to run the cooling
equipment, then the heater wins the efficiency race for delta T.
---

Quote:

---
Then write 'fridge' instead of 'refridgerator'

My point was the English language is wrong. Fridge is short for refridgerator. Adding a d in one and not the other is illogical.

---
LOL, poor uneducated baby...

"Fridge" is a contraction and a bastardization of "Frigidaire", The
brand name of an early-on American refrigerator. The 'd' was added
in order to make the contraction sound the same as it would have
sounded before "idaire" was dropped when "idaire was dropped.

Some of us even still say "icebox"
---

Quote:

I see Americans complaining about gas costs all the time.

---
And we shouldn't?
---

Quote:

If you didn't want to spend loads of money, you wouldn't make the effort to earn it.

---
Wrong again.

We like to make loads of money in case we _have_ to spend it, for
emergencies, but it's also nice to have enough coming in so that we
don't have to worry about running out of groceries and can go to a
movie every once in a while and still have a buffer behind us.

And you?
---

Quote:

---
So, there you sit bitching about what a bunch of assholes your
government comprises and, in the same breath, you defend their
arbitrary decision to limit the energy input to your hovel.

Sounds to me like they've got you locked down and you're loving it.

Same old shit. Let the crown tell you what to do so you don't have
to work it out for yourselves and you'll die happy, having given it
up to what you were told was "A higher authority."

LOL, all the "higher authority" wants from you is taxes.
---

Quote:

What I said was that since your domestic service is limited to 80
amps and mine to 200, yours will have smaller diameter wire in it
than mine.

It might, it might not. I have never measured it.

---
So measure it.

If you want to play this game, it's all about facts which can be
verified by anyone who wants to play.

It's not about opinions from pussies like you who want to fuck
around with shit that you know nothing about.
---

Quote:

For all I know there may be a 200 amp wire in there,
but they don't allow us to use more than 80
as that's all they have allowed for in the transformers.

---
So measure it, pussy, and stop bitching about what they won't allow
you to do.
---

Quote:

---
Let's see...

A million Brits each wasting a watt is a megawatt. Not a lot, but
not insignificant.
---

Quote:

---
That shouldn't matter since you invoked SEER.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

Michael A. Terrell
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Use of Extension Cord

Peter Hucker wrote:

Quote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:32:59 -0000, Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

If I needed to disconnect everything, I'd use the main switch on the fusebox. I don't suppose it really matters if the fuse is before ofr after the meter, as if the house overloads the total limit, the fuse will blow and protect the meter either way. The only differences being if the meter shorted out it wouldn't cause a problem, and if they need to change or repair the meter, they can simply pull the fuse.

Well, the main breaker box is in a bedroom. If the house was on fire
I'd rather go to the service disconnect in the driveway that into a
burning building.

Same here - I think the electricity board can disconnect a house on the pole or substation. But it needs the padlock key. Do you ever get kids turning it off for fun?

That is criminal trespass, and they would go to jail, so no, I
haven't heard of it happening.

Quote:

My old neighbours house was old and had wiring added to it as an afterthought (the house was presumably built before electricity!) The wire came in overhead(!) into the eaves of his roof. Anyway the wire's attachment to the roof came detached, and with the wire swinging in the wind, something came loose inside his roof. In the middle of the night I heard the transformer on the pole over the road sparking like mad. Shortly afterwards there was smoke and the sound of breaking glass, followed quickly by the neighbours running out of the house. Apparently a fire had started in his roof, smashed the glass in the attic window, which woke them. So he called the fire brigade who arrived promptly, and did absolutely nothing. That's right nothing. They didn't have the key to turn off the power on the transformer pole (tsalk about incompetant). They had to wait an hour (!) for the electricity board to come out and disconnect it before they could put the fire out. By which point,
needless to say, there was not much left of his house! If that had been my house I would have been up there cutting that stupid wire with a pair of shears, but I think he saw it as a good excuse to claim on the insurance. His house looked a hell of a lot better after he got a big payout! I told him to sue the fire brigade, he told me he didn't care as long as the insurance paid out. They could sue if they liked.

A lot of homes still use overhead service drops in the U.S., but it
is up to the home owner to report any damage so that it can be repaired.

Same here. The thing had been hanging loose for some time. I'd pointed it out to him (I used to do his gardening), but he didn't seem too bothered. Oops!

Also, the meter readers can report anything that doesn't look right to
them. As far as what you described, its not likely to happen here
because the primary of the pole pigs are individually fused in most
areas so that if the drop shorts the fuse blows. Another advantage to
serving only a couple homes per transformer.

Apparently there is no fuse on that transformer. The electric board said it would be an unnecessary expense (rolls eyes).

I can't say I'd like just anyone to have the ability to switch off the power to my house.

Its required by local code. Its also against the law to tamper with
the service disconnect by anyone other than the home owner, the utility
company, or emergency services. If a house is on fire the Propane and
electricity are shut down but the first emergency crew to arrive rather
than having to wait for the electric company to get there. Once in a
while they can't get to the disconnect quickly because someone has
padlocked and it takes time to cut the lock or the fire has spread and
is blocking access. Mine is 50 feet from the main house, and 20 feet
from the metal four car garage building.

Makes sense. Although I'd be concerned for kids messing around with my power. Or even electocuting themselves?

They would need tools to get into the actual wiring. There is a
waterproof cover over the breakers than can be padlocked when the power
is off to ensure that the electricity stays off during repairs, or after
a fire.

Quote:

Your hot water is heated in another building?

No, the heater is in the corner of the one bedroom cottage in the
bathroom but the breaker box for it is in an attached potting shed.
That heater has a manual switch to provide hot water only when its
needed. The three bedroom house has another water heater as well, but
it is on a timer and is only on for an hour each day.

Christ almighty. You could power NASA with that lot!

There are six buildings on the property,

Oh that explains it. I thought this was your house, shed, and garage.

and each has its own breaker
box. You haven't seen NASA. They could power a whole town with what
they use during a launch at the cape.

I can beleive it.

BTW, I built custom telemetry
equipment for NASA when I worked at Microdyne.

I must be psychic :-)

One custom built wideband telemetry receiver is aboard the
International Space Station. ;-)

Quote:

That's weird. Why are the government setting anything?

To keep them from charging whatever they think they can get away
with.

But they add their own bit? Or is that limited in some way?

All they can add is the fuel charge, and that is audited. Any other
charges have to have government approval.

Quote:

Our lot seem to charge whatever they like, but I found a site that automatically works out how much every one of the 50 suppliers would charge, based on your current usage. It's a very odd system, as I can change "provider", but all I'm really doing is changing the meter reader and billing staff. The power comes from the same place.

--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

John Fields
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Use of Extension Cord

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:48:30 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:

Quote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:50:21 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:26:28 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:36:14 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 23:49:28 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:17:28 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:29:40 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

---
Yes, dumbass, because I liked it.

Even though it was muted? Either you have exceptional hearing, or your mute needs repairing.

---
I _do_ have exceptional hearing, and muting comes _after_ the fact.
If I don't don't like what I hear, I mute it. If I do, I don't.

So far you've been lucky.

What, you're about to mute usenet?

---
No, I haven't plonked you yet.

Glutton for punishment?

---
Sure... Yours.

Ain't me gettin' beat up...
---

Quote:

Whether you know it or not, your "passing comments" are little
insults designed to elicit no response, but to be continuously
absorbed by the insultee for the purpose of allowing you to have
your way with them as time goes by.

"Whether I know it or not"??? If I don't know it then I can't be doing it can I?\

---
Sure you can, you just do it subconsciously. Now that I've alerted
you to it, though, you ought to be able to see it happening. Or
not, you don't seem to be real gifted in the "insight" department.
---

Quote:

---
Your limitations are not a god's.

There is no such thing as a god. What little respect I had for you has now gone.

---
Respect from a twat like you I don't need.
---

Quote:

What's the matter? you can't understand vague?

It wasn't "vague", it was American.

---
I wrote it, I made it vague, it was vague.
---

Quote:

You mean the freedom to get shot?

---
Yeah, and _to_ shoot.

That's why we're Americanos and you're not.
---

Quote:

If it takes a given amount of energy to raise the temperature of one
pound of water one degree Fahrenheit, and it takes the same amount
of energy to lower the temperature of one pound of water one degree
Fahrenheit, but it takes a little extra to run the cooling
equipment, then the heater wins the efficiency race for delta T.

But it doesn't work like that. To heat the water, you must put that amount of heat into the water, from the electricity supply. 1 unit of energy from the supply gives the water one unit of heat. To cool the water, you are not having to create any heat, you are only MOVING it. The only power consumed is the power to run the cooling equipment, ending up as extra heat outside the water.

---
If takes the same amount of energy to add a unit of heat to the
water as it takes it takes to take a unit of heat out of the water,
_plus_ it takes extra energy to run the equipment which is taking
the heat out of the water.
---

Quote:

---
Neither poor nor overeducated.
---

Quote:

I see Americans complaining about gas costs all the time.

---
And we shouldn't?

You have little to complain about.

---
From your point of view, perhaps, but being the
less-than-industrious, lazy, badly educated person you profess to be
makes what I've worked hard to accomplish unimportant to you.
---

Quote:

---
We have Medicare and Medicaid, and we have Social Security. We can
also buy medical insurance if we're so inclined. I do. Can't you?
---

Quote:

but it's also nice to have enough coming in so that we
don't have to worry about running out of groceries and can go to a
movie every once in a while and still have a buffer behind us.

And you?

That's what a credit card is for. Oops car is a right off, have to buy another immediately, put it on the card. Gets paid off over the next few months.

---
Do you mean the car is "write-off"?

The next few months??? Try "the next few lifetimes". If you have
to do debt financing behind a credit card and pay it back over an
extended period of time then you're in such deep shit you'll
probably never be able to stop treading water just to keep from
drowning.
---

Quote:

Learn to read, moron, no one was talking about your grid.

I did. It was to explain that the electricity board most likely have worked out the economics of the house supply wire thickness, just as they have with the national grid.

---
So, there you sit bitching about what a bunch of assholes your
government comprises and, in the same breath, you defend their
arbitrary decision to limit the energy input to your hovel.

The government are ARSEholes. (Buttock holes not donkey holes)

I don't remember telling you I think the electricity board are arseholes.

---
Are they not part of the government?
---

Quote:

Sounds to me like they've got you locked down and you're loving it.

Locked down how?

---
""They" will figure it all out for us and, in their infinite wisdom,
relieve us of the reponsibility of thinking for ourselves."

Governments don't like their sheep thinking for themselves, and will
do whatever they can to lull you into a state pf complacency.

Look at yourself and tell me I'm wrong. You know nothing about the
wiring in your home and are too damned lazy (or scared) to find out
what diameter wire is coming into your house, yet you're willing to
sit there and tell me that because some government agency slapped
their imprimatur on that holy 80 amp number your service is more
efficient than mine.

Locked down _tight_, you are.
---

Quote:

Same old shit. Let the crown

You mean royalty? They're just figureheads. They eat a bit of tax and I'd love to have them all assassinated, but they aren't in power.

---
Assassinated??? Are you serious?

No, I meant the Crown. It's the attitude of subservience to
authority that's been instilled in you all for centuries that makes
you not _want_ to challenge authority. Kind of like the Japanese.
---

Quote:

tell you what to do so you don't have
to work it out for yourselves and you'll die happy, having given it
up to what you were told was "A higher authority."

LOL, all the "higher authority" wants from you is taxes.

Only two things are certain in life, death and taxes!

---
Taxes don't have to be...
---

Quote:

What I said was that since your domestic service is limited to 80
amps and mine to 200, yours will have smaller diameter wire in it
than mine.

It might, it might not. I have never measured it.

---
So measure it.

If you want to play this game, it's all about facts which can be
verified by anyone who wants to play.

It's not about opinions from pussies like you who want to fuck
around with shit that you know nothing about.

The diameter of the cable is not of my concern, and would involve me bothering to go outside and look. We were talking about how much current we need in the house.

---
No, we were talking about efficiency. In other words, If my service
is wired with #0 AWG and yours is wired with #4, for the same load
at the receptacle your system will waste more energy than mine
---

Quote:

For all I know there may be a 200 amp wire in there,
but they don't allow us to use more than 80
as that's all they have allowed for in the transformers.

---
So measure it, pussy, and stop bitching about what they won't allow
you to do.

I'm not bitching about it - I told you 80 amps is plentiful.

---
Which has nothing to do with efficiency, which is what we're
discussing. Point is, with wiring on your end designed to support
80A max into your house, without burning it down, and wiring on my
end designed to support 200A with the same goal in mind, my wiring
is going to have less resistance than yours and will, therefore,
waste less electricity than yours.

Your reticense to divulge the diameter of your service wiring is
not, I suggest, due to your laziness, it's because you know that if
you post what it is you won't be able to sleaze out of admitting you
were wrong and you'll have to accept the ass-kicking you've been
receiving so far.
---

Quote:

Such being the case, the resistance in your service will be higher
than mine and, for the same load on both systems, yours will heat up
more, throwing that energy away, making it less efficient than mine.

Probably not a significant amount.

---
Let's see...

A million Brits each wasting a watt is a megawatt. Not a lot, but
not insignificant.

That's the kind of silly stats the treehuggers put out on telly. A million brits are consuming how much altogether? The only true stat is the percentage.

---
Not at all. Only by knowing the absolute value of the waste can its
percentage be calculated, no matter how much disdain you may have
for the tree-huggers.

In their defense, they're trying to conserve resources. If you're
not, then you're part of the problem.
---

Quote:

No, we're discussing efficiency, not how much power I use.

I was trying to establish how much power you used to run your AC.

---
Assume a running power factor of .9 and use the data I've already
given you to work it out.

I don't know what your weather is like, how cool you like you house etc.

---
That shouldn't matter since you invoked SEER.

You asked me to work out how much power you use to run your AC. Without knowking how much cooler you like your house than the outside air, how big the house is, and how good your insulation is, I cannot work it out.

---
No, I didn't ask you to do that. You asked _me_ to give you that
information and I replied that you already had enough information,
along with the power factor data I also supplied, to figure it out
for yourself, and you can.

Well, that is, you _should_ be able to.

Just figure out what it costs to run it, full-bore, for an hour
without it shutting off.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

Peter Hucker
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Use of Extension Cord

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:18:05 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Quote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:48:30 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:50:21 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:26:28 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:36:14 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 23:49:28 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:

---
I _do_ have exceptional hearing, and muting comes _after_ the fact.
If I don't don't like what I hear, I mute it. If I do, I don't.

So far you've been lucky.

What, you're about to mute usenet?

---
No, I haven't plonked you yet.

Glutton for punishment?

---
Sure... Yours.

Ain't me gettin' beat up...

Really? I'm not the one calling me a fucking wanker every 5 minutes.

Quote:

Why do you have a higher opinion of my subconscious than I do?

Quote:

Now that I've alerted
you to it, though, you ought to be able to see it happening. Or
not, you don't seem to be real gifted in the "insight" department.

Or I know you're talking a load of shite.

Quote:

Your limitations are not a god's.

There is no such thing as a god. What little respect I had for you has now gone.

---
Respect from a twat like you I don't need.

That's good, cause I doubt you get respect from many people.

Quote:

What's the matter? you can't understand vague?

It wasn't "vague", it was American.

---
I wrote it, I made it vague, it was vague.

You just think it was. It's your favourite word since I've been "vague".

Quote:

You mean the freedom to get shot?

---
Yeah, and _to_ shoot.

That's why we're Americanos and you're not.

You mean idiots. Even you have to admit that there are lunatics in America. There are lunatics in any country. You can't let any old Tom Dick or Harry own a shotgun.

Quote:

That is the section where you are wrong. You are not required to create any heat for an AC to work, you just MOVE the heat.

Quote:

_plus_ it takes extra energy to run the equipment which is taking
the heat out of the water.

This is the only power consumption here.

Quote:

LOL, poor uneducated baby...

"Fridge" is a contraction and a bastardization of "Frigidaire", The
brand name of an early-on American refrigerator. The 'd' was added
in order to make the contraction sound the same as it would have
sounded before "idaire" was dropped when "idaire was dropped.

Some of us even still say "icebox"

LOL, poor overeducated person who should be on quizshows :-P

---
Neither poor

Wrong meaning of poor.

Quote:

nor overeducated.

Then you're looking up big words on wikipedia to sound good.

Quote:

I see Americans complaining about gas costs all the time.

---
And we shouldn't?

You have little to complain about.

---
From your point of view, perhaps, but being the
less-than-industrious, lazy, badly educated person you profess to be
makes what I've worked hard to accomplish unimportant to you.

What has this to do with the price of gas?

Quote:

If you didn't want to spend loads of money, you wouldn't make the effort to earn it.

---
Wrong again.

We like to make loads of money in case we _have_ to spend it, for
emergencies,

I suppose..... there's no NHS over there. But then you can have medical insurance.

---
We have Medicare and Medicaid, and we have Social Security. We can
also buy medical insurance if we're so inclined. I do. Can't you?

I don't, I rely on the NHS, it's good enough for me.

My point was what are these emergencies if you have medical insurance?

Quote:

If you insist. There is nothing else I could have meant so your moan is moot.

Quote:

The next few months??? Try "the next few lifetimes".

Really? How long do you think it takes to pay of £500?

Quote:

If you have
to do debt financing behind a credit card and pay it back over an
extended period of time then you're in such deep shit you'll
probably never be able to stop treading water just to keep from
drowning.

Funny, I have several credit cards, ranging from 2.9% to 6.9% interest.