| Author |
Message |
John Fields
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:48:08 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 00:15:24 -0000, Big Mouth Billy Bass <nannerbac@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:49:48 -0000, via
op.s0kchai1wabk2w@blue.mshome.net>, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
spake thusly:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:17:00 -0000, Big Mouth Billy Bass <nannerbac@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:50:44 -0000, via
op.s0h06uwxwabk2w@blue.mshome.net>, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
spake thusly:
I've been electrocuted 6 times at proper mains voltage (240, not your pansy 110), and I'm still alive.
Does "electrocute" mean something other than "to cause death with an
electric shock" in your corner of the English speaking world? The
etymology of the word is "to execute by use of electricity." Very few
references allow for the word to also apply to severe injury. Perhaps
you are a cat, and have three lives left?
Another pedant. I, and almost everyone I've ever met who has spoken about electricity,
uses "electrocute" as a synonym for "electric shock"..
You've met some strange people. I've met exactly zero people who so
severely misunderstand the word.
You don't get it at all do you? People are not machines. Words are not precise. And they vary vastly from place to place.
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I see... When you make an error and are apprised of it, we who
apprise you don't "get it", and you blame your error on what you
would like to consider the vagaries of the language. Certainly it
_couldn't_ be you who is at fault...
---
| Quote: | Here's a clue for you - not
everyone speaks like they've swallowed a dictionary
OK, here's a clue for you - stalwart defense of ignorance is stupid in
the extreme. You've been twice corrected; a sensible man would accept
the corrections and be improved by the process. An ignorant man will
belittle those who attempt to educate him. Your choice.
And oh by the way, your use of the word "pedant" is also incorrect.
You just shot yourself in the foot.
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---
Hmmm... perhaps because of the vagaries of the language or because
of your admitted reticence to consult a lexicon you think 'pedant'
means something other than what the rest of us do. How about a
definition so that we can clear it up, OK?
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
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John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
|
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On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:47:20 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:02:56 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:57:48 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:10:16 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:28:45 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:59:30 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:50:44 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
---
In the US we have a variety of extension cords available, the
variety encompassing choices in both both wire size (AWG, BTW) and
length.
As such, we can choose what we need without being forced to buy an
extension cord with more copper in it than we need
Myself, and everyone I know, do not buy an extension cord then use it for one purpose for the rest of its life. They get moved around. You cannot predict what you will want to plug into it in the future. And they are so cheap you may aswell get the 13 amp ones.
---
That's just foolish. If I need a ten foot extension cord for a
floor lamp burning a 100 watt light bulb I certainly wouldn't need,
or want, a 13 amp monster with a fuse in it when #18 zip cord and a
15 amp breaker in the service panel would be perfectly fine for my
use.
And your lamp would stay there forever would it? And you'd never want to plug something else in next to the lamp? Do you never move anything around in your house?
---
Neither of those is to the point, which is that an extension cord
with a 13 amp fuse in it is very nearly the same as an outlet with a
15 amp breaker in the service panel.
---
Besides, what you stated above is not safe - you have a FIFTEEN amp breaker for a ONE amp bulb?!?!?
---
And a THIRTEEN amp fuse for a ONE amp bulb _is_ safe?
You're missing the point completely. The 13 amp fuse in the extension cord is NOT to protect things you plug into it. These should already be protected by the fuses in their own plugs. The 13 amp fuse in the extension cord is to protect the extension cord from being overloaded, by a total of more than 13 amps worth of devices being plugged into the end of it.
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A 15 amp breaker will do essentially the same thing if it's placed
in front of the cord since, in either case, the cord will be
expected to carry 13 or 15 amps before the protection device
activates. The problem with the 13 amp device at the end of the
cord is that the cord will still be hot if it's at the load end,
while if it's at the generator end it's just redundant since the
breaker in the service panel will trip and cut off the power to the
outlet.
---
| Quote: | Just as your fused outlet does NOT protect the appliance you plug into it, as the appliance (and it's cord) are most likely of a lower current rating than the outlet. The fuse is to protect the OUTLET from being overlaoded.
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---
Since the outlet, itself, is surrounded by a non-flammable
enclosure, the breaker is there to keep the wiring from becoming
overheated and causing a fire.
---
| Quote: | An how many amps can a #18 cord take?
---
#18 has a resistance of 6.385 milliohms per foot, so with 15 amps
flowing through it it'll drop:
E = IR = 15A * 0.006385 ohms = 0.0957V ~ 0.1V
per foot, and the power it'll dissipate will be
P = IE = 15A * 0.1V = 1.5 watt per foot,
hardly anything to get worried about, especially with thin
insulation.
So you have just told me that a #18 cord will happily take 15 amps. Yet earlier you compared it to a "13A monster" as though the 13A one was overkill?
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Not "happily" since, at 1.5 watts per foot it will get warm. But
nothing to worry about, either, unless you do something stupid like
run it under a rug.
It may very well be overkill, but then, overkill varies in the eye
of the beholder. Why don't you tell us what one of your 13A
monsters comprises?
---
| Quote: | and a fuse which,
at 13 amperes, will be largely useless except in the case of a gross
short at the load end of the cord.
It's not useless at all. It prevents the extension cord from overheating, that's what the fuse is for. The fuse in the equipment's plug stops its cable catching fire. To put a fuse of the full capacity of the wall outlet off in the fusebox is stupid, because you will most likely plug a device into that outlet with a low power consumption and a thin cord, which is now not protected.
---
By the same token, if I plugged my 100 watt lamp into the wall with
your 13 amp fused monster extension cord, the thin wire in the lamp
won't be protected and could easily set fire to something if, for
some reason, 13 amperes was was allowed to flow through it for an
extended period of time. If you want _real_ protection, fuse the
lamp.
Of course the lamp is fused. All UK mains plugs have fuses, by LAW.
---
None of ours do, so I guess you're the pansies after all.
When I said pansies I was referring to electric shocks. I don't wish my house to burn down and cause me financial losses when I am not at home to operate the extinguisher.
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Then CYA with insurance.
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| Quote: | Like posting about your ignorance?
Ignorance of what?
---
What does your smug: "I don't think I've ever read any instructions,
fineprint, terms and conditions, or policies in my life. I have
more important and/or more interesting things to do with my time!"
sound like?
It sounds like I realise they are a waste of time. Instructions are for people who don't have a clue how something works.
---
It sounds to me like you're a conceited idiot. Instructions are
what you read in order to operate something properly, no matter how
much of a clue you think you might have.
No, the instructions are read if you don't know how to use the device.
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---
And you've never had to read the instructions because you always
knew exacty how to run the device? LOL, you must lead a _very_
simple life!
---
| Quote: | Ignorance of
How dangerous American electrical systems are?
They are more or less exactly how we used to do things. Now it's illegal here.
---
All that means is that you've taken a step "forward" into more
dangerous territory. We still have 240 V coming into every
household for use by high-power appliances (A/C, clothes dryers,
water heaters, electric ranges, and the like, but we also have the
transformer secondary's center tap coming in as well. That allows
us to use a much safer 120V for all our other needs. It's also
cheaper to make smaller appliances that run on 120V since, for
example, 120V transformer primaries need only be wound with half the
number of turns as a 240V transformer for the same output voltage.
I wasn't talking about voltage. I was talking about your location of fuses, see above.
---
You were talking about safety, and regardless of where the fuses are
located, 120V is inherently safer that 240 in case of a shock.
But you have a mixture of different voltage and current outlets - must be highly inconvenient, aswell as providing the possibility of people plugging the wrong thing in the wrong place.
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Actually, quite convenient as well as economical. Our very
inexpensive (less than $1, yet still meet code) garden-variety 120V
receptacles are physically different from our more expensive 240V
receptacles.
---
| Quote: | But since we're on voltage, it's a lot more convenient to have every outlet the same, I can plug anything into any socket.
---
All our 120V sockets are the same, so so can we. Our 120V sockets
are different from out 120V sockets for obvious reasons, but they're
all the same also, so that's not a problem either.
Try writing that again!
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Hmmm... Perhaps that's why you don't read instructions.
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| Quote: | Anyway you said you had different current outlets earlier. Just what outlets do exist in US homes?
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---
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html
---
| Quote: | Just a minute, does that mean you can use a 240V appliance you bought over here when you go back to the US? I thought you were 110V only.
---
Probably 90-95% of the US is 120/240, so yes, of course we can. The
only problem is the difference in frequency, you being on 50Hz and
us being on 60, but that often turns out not to be a problem at all.
Unfortunately for you, if you buy 120V appliances here and take them
back with you you'll be out of luck unless you buy a 2:1 transformer
to run them on.
Yes I noticed. Someone came to me with a £300 (!) coffeemaker (he's a perfectionist with coffee) that was imported from th US and was 120 volts. The store wanted £80 for a transformer which was bigger than the coffeemaker! I got him one for £30 from ebay (ex-building site isolating transformer).
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If the thing brews by time instead of temperature I suspect he's
getting stronger/more bitter coffee than he should be.
---
| Quote: | Whatever the reason, I can guarantee that if you pinch across your
240 mains with both hands at the load end of your fused extension
cord and you take a hit across your chest and I do the same at the
end of my 120V unfused extension cord I'll have a better chance of
surviving the hit than you will.
Because you have circuit breakers. We do too. I don't as it's an old house and I haven't changed them. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether the extension cord is fused or not. If I removed the extension cord fuse, I would be no more likely to survive.
---
You don't have much of an attention span, do you?
You broached the subject of our choosing 120V for reasons of safety,
and I was pointing out that whether we did or not, 120V is
_inherently_ safer than 240V. The extension cord, circuit breaker
and all the rest of it have nothing to do with it, since the fact
remains that a 240V hit is harder than a 120V hit. Four times
harder for the same body resistance and same contact time if you
consider the power being dissipated in the body. Also, 240V will
cause much more violent muscle contraction, leading to the greater
likelihood of secondary injury.
The reason I mentioned the fuse is thatyou did - "end of your fused extension cord".
---
What are you, a child? At this point we're discussing safety and
whether a line is fused or not makes no difference in terms of being
shocked to death. Do you think that the 13 amp fuse in the
extension cord is going to blow before you're dead if you take a hit
across your chest?
No, but you were wittering on about my FUSED extension cord as though the fuse would make it more dangerous.
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It might, psychologically. Knowing that an extension cord has a
fuse in it might lull one into a sense of false security, While
knowing that the extension cord is _always_ hot would take that that
sense away.
---
| Quote: | Anyway 240V may be more dangerous, but we can have much thinner cables. And it ain't as dangerous as you make out anyway.
---
You can have cables with smaller diameter conductors for the same
load dissipation, but you need thicker insulation.
If we had a thinner insulation it would not be as resistant to getting damaged. A UK 240V mains cord most likely has enough insulation for a few kV (the flimsy ribbon cable for IDE hard drives for example is rated at 300 volts!), but if it was only just thick enough, it would get damaged through handling.
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So what? the point was that your cables might not be thinner because
of the insulation requirements, even though the conductor diameter
might be smaller. In any case, apples for apples, a 13 amp 120V
extension cord would be thinner than a 13 amp 240V extension cord.
---
| Quote: | And, it's not "may be more dangerous", it's "_is_ more dangerous",
so stop trying to trivialize the difference.
It is more dangerous, but it's still trivial.
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I see that Darwin Award getting closer...
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| Quote: | Once should have been enough to keep the other five from happening
so, more than likely, there's a Darwin Award in your future...
Electrocution occurs when you have a weak heart.
---
No, electroction occurs when you are shocked to death as was pointed
out by another poster.
It's also entirely possible to have a fine heart but to die from
fibrillation caused by even a moderately weak shock.
Just doesn't happen. Are you suggesting I have an unusually strong heart?
---
No, an unusually thick head.
That wouldn't stop my heart getting knackered.
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Sure it would, since it's your head that dictates where you put your
fingers.
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| Quote: | In fact statistics show that most injuries and deaths occuring from electrocution occur due to >secondary accidents.
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Then the cause of death wasn't electrocution.
Read the link I posted to the other pedant.
---
Why? I see that you like to play fast and loose and, when you make
a mistake, refuse to own up to it and, instead, cast aspersions on
who caught you. You're a dishonest little prick.
You don't get it at all do you? You're a pedant. Go look it up and learn something.
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Don't like being made responsible for your inaccuracies? Too bad.
---
| Quote: | Electric drill electrocutes you and you fall off your ladder, etc.
---
In that case the cause of death (if you weren't dead before you hit
the ground was a broken neck, a concussion, whatever. But _not_
electrocution.
The CAUSE of death was a faulty appliance.
---
No, the cause of death was a broken neck.
The reason for the accident was a faulty appliance. Big difference.
This is like talking to a brick wall. You don't get it at all do you? You're a pedant. Go look it up and learn something.
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Don't like being made responsible for your inaccuracies? Too bad.
You liken it to talking to a brick wall because you don't do logic
well, you can't handle being wrong, and I won't let you off the
hook.
Don't like talking to a brick wall? Then stop talking.
---
| Quote: | If I pushed you off a ladder and you broke your neck, you seem to be saying it wouldn't be called murder.
---
That's a totally different situation and has nothing to do with what
we're discussing, but you inserted it in order to try to obfuscate
the fact that you were wrong. More bullshit diversionary tactics.
Too complicated for you was it? Cause is what makes the thing happen. The cause in the murder case is me. The cause in the drill case is the faulty drill.
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Using that logic, the cause could have been any of the factors
leading up to the broken neck. In both cases, however, what
_caused_ the death was the broken neck. The responsibility for the
death is quite another matter, and in the case of your willfully
pushing the ladder over in order to effect the death, the
responsibility is clearly yours. The responsibility in the case of
the drill is a little more difficult to define, and could involve
carelessness on the part of the manufacturer, improper use by the
deceased, or even something as simple as a faulty extension cord.
---
| Quote: | To belabor a point, since being shocked by 240V is a much more
physically dramatic event than being shocked by 120V, it's much more
likely that you'll be thrown off the ladder by a 240V drill than by
a 120V one, which bring us back to the _fact_ that 120V is safer
than 240V.
Who uses corded drills anyway?
---
More bullshit diversionary tactics.
No, a simple question, as they are inconvenient. Any appliance which requires you to climb or move around a lot is a hell of a lot easier to use if it's cordless.
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More attempted diversionary bullshit.
The question was "Who uses corded drills anyway?". Nothing was
mentioned about inconvenience or any of the rest of it.
---
| Quote: | _I_ use corded drills, outdoors, all the time and haven't been
electrocuted yet.
I can use my cordless drill in the rain.
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---
"Anything you can do I can do better", huh?
Child.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
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John Fields
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
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On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:19:46 -0800, Peter Bennett
<peterbb@somewhere.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:47:20 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:02:56 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
---
All our 120V sockets are the same, so so can we. Our 120V sockets
are different from out 120V sockets for obvious reasons, but they're
all the same also, so that's not a problem either.
Try writing that again!
I suspect he meant to say "Our 120 V sockets are different from our
240 V sockets"
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---
Ooops... Yup, thanks!
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
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John Fields
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 00:01:43 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:20:58 -0000, Big Mouth Billy Bass <nannerbac@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 19 Nov 2005 21:25:40 -0800, via
1132464340.190007.178930@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
littleboyblu87@yahoo.com spake thusly:
I don't see what the problem would be with using a regular extension
cord with a vcr, tv, or cordless telephone since they're often located
in areas of a room where the cord is not exposed. One of my problems is
that my tv, vcr, and cable box can only be put in one area of the room
and there is only one outlet there. This means that I can only plug in
the tv and cable box. Where am I supposed to plug in the vcr at? That's
why I need an extension cord. But of course, the manual says not to use
it (and the same thing for the cordless telephone).
The best thing to do is to buy a switched outlet strip with a 15 amp
circuit breaker. By design, it will likely also include some minimal
surge suppression. The typical extension cord is not meant for
permanent applications. Too wimpy; too subject to abuse by overload.
In the UK, I simply buy a 4 way strip for £2.99 - it's got a 13A fuse both in the plug and in the strip (they all do, or they're illegal). For a quid extra I can get one with basic surge suppression.
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If they were in the UK they might, also, but since they're not, your
comment has no relevance and one wonders why you bothered to post.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
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Peter Hucker
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:12 am Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:12:55 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:47:20 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:02:56 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:57:48 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:10:16 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:28:45 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
---
That's just foolish. If I need a ten foot extension cord for a
floor lamp burning a 100 watt light bulb I certainly wouldn't need,
or want, a 13 amp monster with a fuse in it when #18 zip cord and a
15 amp breaker in the service panel would be perfectly fine for my
use.
And your lamp would stay there forever would it? And you'd never want to plug something else in next to the lamp? Do you never move anything around in your house?
---
Neither of those is to the point, which is that an extension cord
with a 13 amp fuse in it is very nearly the same as an outlet with a
15 amp breaker in the service panel.
---
Besides, what you stated above is not safe - you have a FIFTEEN amp breaker for a ONE amp bulb?!?!?
---
And a THIRTEEN amp fuse for a ONE amp bulb _is_ safe?
You're missing the point completely. The 13 amp fuse in the extension cord is NOT to protect things you plug into it. These should already be protected by the fuses in their own plugs. The 13 amp fuse in the extension cord is to protect the extension cord from being overloaded, by a total of more than 13 amps worth of devices being plugged into the end of it.
---
A 15 amp breaker will do essentially the same thing if it's placed
in front of the cord since, in either case, the cord will be
expected to carry 13 or 15 amps before the protection device
activates. The problem with the 13 amp device at the end of the
cord is that the cord will still be hot if it's at the load end,
while if it's at the generator end it's just redundant since the
breaker in the service panel will trip and cut off the power to the
outlet.
|
That's ok if the outlet has its own breaker. And if all cords you can buy are the same rating, which you've said is not the case in the US. You could buy an unfused extension cord of less than 15 amps, and the 15 amp breaker would not stop you overloading this cord with 15 amps.
Yes you're right, the fuse at the load end does not cut off the power to the cord, but it does stop you overloading it. The appliances are still shut off if you exceed 13 amps. There is always a 13A fuse in the plug anyway, so I'm not sure why they all have a fuse at the load end aswell.
I hate breakers anyway - they are too damn sensitive. At work for example, we have a trolley of 15 laptops. If you plug the trolley into an outlet with a 30 amp breaker, it quite often trips (presumbly all the laptop PSUs have a large inrush current, and if I mistime it and plug it in at the peak of the sinewave it exceeds 30 amps momentarily). No problem with a fused outlet. Maybe you can get less sensitive breakers, but ours are certainly very jumpy.
| Quote: | Just as your fused outlet does NOT protect the appliance you plug into it, as the appliance (and it's cord) are most likely of a lower current rating than the outlet. The fuse is to protect the OUTLET from being overlaoded.
---
Since the outlet, itself, is surrounded by a non-flammable
enclosure, the breaker is there to keep the wiring from becoming
overheated and causing a fire.
|
I was inaccurate, yes it's the house WIRING the breaker is protecting, not the actual outlet. We have those breakers (or fuses) too. Although our houses are wired in a strange manner - a 30A breaker or fuse in the main box serving half the outlets in the house (there are usually two sets - upstairs and downstairs if it's a 2-storey house). The outlets are 13 amps. So you can plug a 30 amp device into a 13 amp outlet. Except I suppose that never happens, as you can't buy 30 amp devices, and if you plugged two 13 amp devices into an adapter, the adapter would have its own 13 amp fuse which would blow. We also have what's called "ring mains" - the outlets are all connected in a circle around the house, with 15 amp cable for a 30 amp circuit. Cost saving I believe. Shouldn't cause a problem, unless of course one of the cables becomes detached, causing you to have a 15 amp cable protected by a 30 amp fuse or breaker.
| Quote: | An how many amps can a #18 cord take?
---
#18 has a resistance of 6.385 milliohms per foot, so with 15 amps
flowing through it it'll drop:
E = IR = 15A * 0.006385 ohms = 0.0957V ~ 0.1V
per foot, and the power it'll dissipate will be
P = IE = 15A * 0.1V = 1.5 watt per foot,
hardly anything to get worried about, especially with thin
insulation.
So you have just told me that a #18 cord will happily take 15 amps. Yet earlier you compared it to a "13A monster" as though the 13A one was overkill?
---
Not "happily" since, at 1.5 watts per foot it will get warm. But
nothing to worry about, either, unless you do something stupid like
run it under a rug.
|
People do tend to leave them coiled up if they are too long for the task. I've seen extensions on a reel (like a hosepipe) which have two current ratings: one for extended, and one for rolled up.
| Quote: | It may very well be overkill, but then, overkill varies in the eye
of the beholder. Why don't you tell us what one of your 13A
monsters comprises?
|
They're not monsters, the cable isn't that thick. I'm not sure what # you'd call it (or even if the US and the UK use the same system), but if I use one with 13 amps going through it, it doesn't get the slightest bit warm.
I suppose if I was making my own extension cord (you can't buy them like this anymore) I could use thinner cheaper wire, which I've done in the past. But I always end up needing to use it for a different appliance some other time which needs more current.
| Quote: | By the same token, if I plugged my 100 watt lamp into the wall with
your 13 amp fused monster extension cord, the thin wire in the lamp
won't be protected and could easily set fire to something if, for
some reason, 13 amperes was was allowed to flow through it for an
extended period of time. If you want _real_ protection, fuse the
lamp.
Of course the lamp is fused. All UK mains plugs have fuses, by LAW.
---
None of ours do, so I guess you're the pansies after all.
When I said pansies I was referring to electric shocks. I don't wish my house to burn down and cause me financial losses when I am not at home to operate the extinguisher.
---
Then CYA with insurance.
|
ROFL! I had to look hatup - I take it you mean "Cover Your Ass"?
Insurance only pays for the finances. It does not replace family heirlooms, or dead pets.
| Quote: | What does your smug: "I don't think I've ever read any instructions,
fineprint, terms and conditions, or policies in my life. I have
more important and/or more interesting things to do with my time!"
sound like?
It sounds like I realise they are a waste of time. Instructions are for people who don't have a clue how something works.
---
It sounds to me like you're a conceited idiot. Instructions are
what you read in order to operate something properly, no matter how
much of a clue you think you might have.
No, the instructions are read if you don't know how to use the device.
---
And you've never had to read the instructions because you always
knew exacty how to run the device? LOL, you must lead a _very_
simple life!
|
No, I'm just so clever I don't need to ;-)
I only read instructions as a last resort.
| Quote: | All that means is that you've taken a step "forward" into more
dangerous territory. We still have 240 V coming into every
household for use by high-power appliances (A/C, clothes dryers,
water heaters, electric ranges, and the like, but we also have the
transformer secondary's center tap coming in as well. That allows
us to use a much safer 120V for all our other needs. It's also
cheaper to make smaller appliances that run on 120V since, for
example, 120V transformer primaries need only be wound with half the
number of turns as a 240V transformer for the same output voltage.
I wasn't talking about voltage. I was talking about your location of fuses, see above.
---
You were talking about safety, and regardless of where the fuses are
located, 120V is inherently safer that 240 in case of a shock.
But you have a mixture of different voltage and current outlets - must be highly inconvenient, aswell as providing the possibility of people plugging the wrong thing in the wrong place.
---
Actually, quite convenient as well as economical. Our very
inexpensive (less than $1, yet still meet code) garden-variety 120V
receptacles are physically different from our more expensive 240V
receptacles.
|
But.... for a given power of appliance you have thicker cord and thicker cable in the walls than we do at 240 volts.
| Quote: | But since we're on voltage, it's a lot more convenient to have every outlet the same, I can plug anything into any socket.
---
All our 120V sockets are the same, so so can we. Our 120V sockets
are different from out 120V sockets for obvious reasons, but they're
all the same also, so that's not a problem either.
Try writing that again!
---
Hmmm... Perhaps that's why you don't read instructions.
|
What? You wrote "Our 120V sockets are different from out 120V sockets"
So there are no different current-rated outlets? Just the 240 volt and 120 volt?
Another point - I see your plugs don't have to have an earth prong. Our sockets have shutters over the live (er... hot) and neutral so kids can't stick god knows what in there without sticking something in the earth hole first. A german student over here in the UK used to carry a screwdriver in his pocket which he called an "adapter" - he shoved it in the earth hole to allow the german 2 pin plugs to fit in the UK sockets!!
| Quote: | Just a minute, does that mean you can use a 240V appliance you bought over here when you go back to the US? I thought you were 110V only.
---
Probably 90-95% of the US is 120/240, so yes, of course we can. The
only problem is the difference in frequency, you being on 50Hz and
us being on 60, but that often turns out not to be a problem at all.
Unfortunately for you, if you buy 120V appliances here and take them
back with you you'll be out of luck unless you buy a 2:1 transformer
to run them on.
Yes I noticed. Someone came to me with a £300 (!) coffeemaker (he's a perfectionist with coffee) that was imported from th US and was 120 volts. The store wanted £80 for a transformer which was bigger than the coffeemaker! I got him one for £30 from ebay (ex-building site isolating transformer).
---
If the thing brews by time instead of temperature I suspect he's
getting stronger/more bitter coffee than he should be.
|
What do you mean? He didn't run it off 240 volts, that would no doubt have blown the thing up.
| Quote: | You don't have much of an attention span, do you?
You broached the subject of our choosing 120V for reasons of safety,
and I was pointing out that whether we did or not, 120V is
_inherently_ safer than 240V. The extension cord, circuit breaker
and all the rest of it have nothing to do with it, since the fact
remains that a 240V hit is harder than a 120V hit. Four times
harder for the same body resistance and same contact time if you
consider the power being dissipated in the body. Also, 240V will
cause much more violent muscle contraction, leading to the greater
likelihood of secondary injury.
The reason I mentioned the fuse is thatyou did - "end of your fused extension cord".
---
What are you, a child? At this point we're discussing safety and
whether a line is fused or not makes no difference in terms of being
shocked to death. Do you think that the 13 amp fuse in the
extension cord is going to blow before you're dead if you take a hit
across your chest?
No, but you were wittering on about my FUSED extension cord as though the fuse would make it more dangerous.
---
It might, psychologically. Knowing that an extension cord has a
fuse in it might lull one into a sense of false security, While
knowing that the extension cord is _always_ hot would take that that
sense away.
|
Psychologists are as pointless as lawyers :-)
Anyway I doubt 90% of people know enough about electricity to think that way.
| Quote: | Anyway 240V may be more dangerous, but we can have much thinner cables. And it ain't as dangerous as you make out anyway.
---
You can have cables with smaller diameter conductors for the same
load dissipation, but you need thicker insulation.
If we had a thinner insulation it would not be as resistant to getting damaged. A UK 240V mains cord most likely has enough insulation for a few kV (the flimsy ribbon cable for IDE hard drives for example is rated at 300 volts!), but if it was only just thick enough, it would get damaged through handling.
---
So what? the point was that your cables might not be thinner because
of the insulation requirements, even though the conductor diameter
might be smaller. In any case, apples for apples, a 13 amp 120V
extension cord would be thinner than a 13 amp 240V extension cord.
|
My point is it isn't thinner. Your 120 volt 13 amp cord will be just fine at 240 volts. The insulator thickness is probably a minimum reuqired to stop it being damaged through handling. Look how flimsy an IDE ribbon cable is. That's rated at 300 volts.
| Quote: | And, it's not "may be more dangerous", it's "_is_ more dangerous",
so stop trying to trivialize the difference.
It is more dangerous, but it's still trivial.
---
I see that Darwin Award getting closer...
|
Nah, I'll more likely die in a car accident. At 140mph. Gotta love speed camera detectors!
| Quote: | No, electroction occurs when you are shocked to death as was pointed
out by another poster.
It's also entirely possible to have a fine heart but to die from
fibrillation caused by even a moderately weak shock.
Just doesn't happen. Are you suggesting I have an unusually strong heart?
---
No, an unusually thick head.
That wouldn't stop my heart getting knackered.
---
Sure it would, since it's your head that dictates where you put your
fingers.
|
In which case a THIN head would stop my heart getting knackered. A thick one would cause me to misplace my fingers.
| Quote: | Then the cause of death wasn't electrocution.
Read the link I posted to the other pedant.
---
Why? I see that you like to play fast and loose and, when you make
a mistake, refuse to own up to it and, instead, cast aspersions on
who caught you. You're a dishonest little prick.
You don't get it at all do you? You're a pedant. Go look it up and learn something.
---
Don't like being made responsible for your inaccuracies? Too bad.
|
No, I don't care about minor inaccuracies. Try allowing for context, reading between the lines, etc. Don't take every word at dictionary meaning.
| Quote: | Electric drill electrocutes you and you fall off your ladder, etc.
---
In that case the cause of death (if you weren't dead before you hit
the ground was a broken neck, a concussion, whatever. But _not_
electrocution.
The CAUSE of death was a faulty appliance.
---
No, the cause of death was a broken neck.
The reason for the accident was a faulty appliance. Big difference.
This is like talking to a brick wall. You don't get it at all do you? You're a pedant. Go look it up and learn something.
---
Don't like being made responsible for your inaccuracies? Too bad.
You liken it to talking to a brick wall because you don't do logic
well, you can't handle being wrong, and I won't let you off the
hook.
Don't like talking to a brick wall? Then stop talking.
|
I am alledgedly talking to a human being, not a computer. Humans are not 100% logical, so I don't expect to have to use precision words - this is not Germany.
| Quote: | If I pushed you off a ladder and you broke your neck, you seem to be saying it wouldn't be called murder.
---
That's a totally different situation and has nothing to do with what
we're discussing, but you inserted it in order to try to obfuscate
the fact that you were wrong. More bullshit diversionary tactics.
Too complicated for you was it? Cause is what makes the thing happen. The cause in the murder case is me. The cause in the drill case is the faulty drill.
---
Using that logic, the cause could have been any of the factors
leading up to the broken neck. In both cases, however, what
_caused_ the death was the broken neck. The responsibility for the
death is quite another matter, and in the case of your willfully
pushing the ladder over in order to effect the death, the
responsibility is clearly yours. The responsibility in the case of
the drill is a little more difficult to define, and could involve
carelessness on the part of the manufacturer, improper use by the
deceased, or even something as simple as a faulty extension cord.
|
A causes B to cause C to cause D to cause E. What is the cause of E?
| Quote: | To belabor a point, since being shocked by 240V is a much more
physically dramatic event than being shocked by 120V, it's much more
likely that you'll be thrown off the ladder by a 240V drill than by
a 120V one, which bring us back to the _fact_ that 120V is safer
than 240V.
Who uses corded drills anyway?
---
More bullshit diversionary tactics.
No, a simple question, as they are inconvenient. Any appliance which requires you to climb or move around a lot is a hell of a lot easier to use if it's cordless.
---
More attempted diversionary bullshit.
The question was "Who uses corded drills anyway?". Nothing was
mentioned about inconvenience or any of the rest of it.
|
So sorry for not sticking precisely to the subject (rolls eyes in disbelief).
| Quote: | _I_ use corded drills, outdoors, all the time and haven't been
electrocuted yet.
I can use my cordless drill in the rain.
---
"Anything you can do I can do better", huh?
Child.
|
I was merely stating an advantage, silly.
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
A note left for a pianist from his wife: "Gone Chopin, have Liszt, Bach in a Minuet." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:14 am Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:22:24 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 00:01:43 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:20:58 -0000, Big Mouth Billy Bass <nannerbac@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 19 Nov 2005 21:25:40 -0800, via
1132464340.190007.178930@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
littleboyblu87@yahoo.com spake thusly:
I don't see what the problem would be with using a regular extension
cord with a vcr, tv, or cordless telephone since they're often located
in areas of a room where the cord is not exposed. One of my problems is
that my tv, vcr, and cable box can only be put in one area of the room
and there is only one outlet there. This means that I can only plug in
the tv and cable box. Where am I supposed to plug in the vcr at? That's
why I need an extension cord. But of course, the manual says not to use
it (and the same thing for the cordless telephone).
The best thing to do is to buy a switched outlet strip with a 15 amp
circuit breaker. By design, it will likely also include some minimal
surge suppression. The typical extension cord is not meant for
permanent applications. Too wimpy; too subject to abuse by overload.
In the UK, I simply buy a 4 way strip for £2.99 - it's got a 13A fuse both in the plug and in the strip (they all do, or they're illegal). For a quid extra I can get one with basic surge suppression.
---
If they were in the UK they might, also, but since they're not, your
comment has no relevance and one wonders why you bothered to post.
|
I was stating that we don't have the problem of "too wimpy; too subject to abuse by overload."
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
Acupuncturists do it with a small prick. |
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|
|
Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:14 am Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:31:40 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:19:46 -0800, Peter Bennett
peterbb@somewhere.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:47:20 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:02:56 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
---
All our 120V sockets are the same, so so can we. Our 120V sockets
are different from out 120V sockets for obvious reasons, but they're
all the same also, so that's not a problem either.
Try writing that again!
I suspect he meant to say "Our 120 V sockets are different from our
240 V sockets"
---
Ooops... Yup, thanks!
|
See I told you having both voltages could cause them to get mixed up ;-)
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
_
|_t+.__________________......_ /;_
;________________/ : \ t""o.\__
:---|------------------t-----^-`--' /
\__L___________________\____________\
""-. o .--. \--'/ l .-t+.
\ ( l) ;"" : /
l `--" o; Y
"""""";: .-. :\
:: '-' ;\
;; : ;
:: ;|
;'-------';
'"------" |
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|
|
Peter Hucker
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:16 am Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:23:48 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:48:08 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 00:15:24 -0000, Big Mouth Billy Bass <nannerbac@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:49:48 -0000, via
op.s0kchai1wabk2w@blue.mshome.net>, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
spake thusly:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:17:00 -0000, Big Mouth Billy Bass <nannerbac@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:50:44 -0000, via
op.s0h06uwxwabk2w@blue.mshome.net>, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
spake thusly:
Does "electrocute" mean something other than "to cause death with an
electric shock" in your corner of the English speaking world? The
etymology of the word is "to execute by use of electricity." Very few
references allow for the word to also apply to severe injury. Perhaps
you are a cat, and have three lives left?
Another pedant. I, and almost everyone I've ever met who has spoken about electricity,
uses "electrocute" as a synonym for "electric shock"..
You've met some strange people. I've met exactly zero people who so
severely misunderstand the word.
You don't get it at all do you? People are not machines. Words are not precise. And they vary vastly from place to place.
---
I see... When you make an error and are apprised of it, we who
apprise you don't "get it", and you blame your error on what you
would like to consider the vagaries of the language. Certainly it
_couldn't_ be you who is at fault...
|
You don't appear to be able to distinguish between an error and an imperfectly correct term.
| Quote: | Here's a clue for you - not
everyone speaks like they've swallowed a dictionary
OK, here's a clue for you - stalwart defense of ignorance is stupid in
the extreme. You've been twice corrected; a sensible man would accept
the corrections and be improved by the process. An ignorant man will
belittle those who attempt to educate him. Your choice.
And oh by the way, your use of the word "pedant" is also incorrect.
You just shot yourself in the foot.
---
Hmmm... perhaps because of the vagaries of the language or because
of your admitted reticence to consult a lexicon you think 'pedant'
means something other than what the rest of us do. How about a
definition so that we can clear it up, OK?
|
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pedant
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
Why do sailors have tattoos on their backs?
So their shipmates will have something to read. |
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John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:12:04 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:12:55 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
So you have just told me that a #18 cord will happily take 15 amps. Yet earlier you compared it to a "13A monster" as though the 13A one was overkill?
---
Not "happily" since, at 1.5 watts per foot it will get warm. But
nothing to worry about, either, unless you do something stupid like
run it under a rug.
People do tend to leave them coiled up if they are too long for the task. I've seen extensions on a reel (like a hosepipe) which have two current ratings: one for extended, and one for rolled up.
|
---
Yes. Coiled up, the thermal resistance to ambient increases for the
cable surrounded by cable, so its temperature will increase.
---
| Quote: | It may very well be overkill, but then, overkill varies in the eye
of the beholder. Why don't you tell us what one of your 13A
monsters comprises?
They're not monsters, the cable isn't that thick. I'm not sure what # you'd call it (or even if the US and the UK use the same system), but if I use one with 13 amps going through it, it doesn't get the slightest bit warm.
|
---
What's the wire diameter and the overall diameter of the jacket for
13A?
---
| Quote: | I suppose if I was making my own extension cord (you can't buy them like this anymore)
|
---
Are you only allowed to have 13 amp extension cords? What lengths?
---
| Quote: | I could use thinner cheaper wire, which I've done in the past.
But I always end up needing to use it for a different appliance
some other time which needs more current.
Then CYA with insurance.
ROFL! I had to look hatup - I take it you mean "Cover Your Ass"?
Insurance only pays for the finances. It does not replace family heirlooms, or dead pets.
|
---
Mine pays for _everything_ except dead pets. The house, the
contents of the house, _everything_.
---
| Quote: | And you've never had to read the instructions because you always
knew exacty how to run the device? LOL, you must lead a _very_
simple life!
No, I'm just so clever I don't need to ;-)
I only read instructions as a last resort.
|
---
So, we've gone from "I never read instructions" to "I only read
instructions as a last resort." I'd consider that headway...
---
| Quote: | ---
Actually, quite convenient as well as economical. Our very
inexpensive (less than $1, yet still meet code) garden-variety 120V
receptacles are physically different from our more expensive 240V
receptacles.
But.... for a given power of appliance you have thicker cord and thicker cable in the walls than we do at 240 volts.
|
---
Perhaps. I don't know what your requiremants are for premises
wiring, So I'll neither agree nor disagree with you until you post
some relevant data.
---
| Quote: | But since we're on voltage, it's a lot more convenient to have every outlet the same, I can plug anything into any socket.
---
All our 120V sockets are the same, so so can we. Our 120V sockets
are different from out 120V sockets for obvious reasons, but they're
all the same also, so that's not a problem either.
Try writing that again!
---
Hmmm... Perhaps that's why you don't read instructions.
What? You wrote "Our 120V sockets are different from out 120V sockets"
|
---
Yes. my error. It should have been "Our 120V sockets are different
from our 240 sockets."
---
---
No, there are 30A receptacles available as well as 20's.
---
| Quote: | Another point - I see your plugs don't have to have an earth prong.
|
---
Wrong. The "U" shaped opening leads to a ground contact.
---
Our sockets have shutters over the live (er... hot) and neutral so
kids can't stick god knows what in there without sticking something
in the earth hole first. A german student over here in the UK used
to carry a screwdriver in his pocket which he called an "adapter" -
he shoved it in the earth hole to allow the german 2 pin plugs to
fit in the UK sockets!!
---
We have receptacle covers which, if we have children running around
loose, we insert into unused receptacles which are difficult for
little fingers to remove. Of course, if they're intent in sticking
something into an outlet they'll just unplug the lamp or whatever
and go on with their adventure, much as they would by sticking
something into the earth hole in yours and then going on with the
rest of it.
---
| Quote: | ---
If the thing brews by time instead of temperature I suspect he's
getting stronger/more bitter coffee than he should be.
What do you mean? He didn't run it off 240 volts, that would no doubt have blown the thing up.
|
---
3 minutes at 60Hz = 3.6 minutes at 50Hz.
---
| Quote: | ---
It might, psychologically. Knowing that an extension cord has a
fuse in it might lull one into a sense of false security, While
knowing that the extension cord is _always_ hot would take that that
sense away.
Psychologists are as pointless as lawyers :-)
|
---
No one's talking about psychologists.
Moreover, psychology isn't pointless, and neither is law.
---
| Quote: | Anyway I doubt 90% of people know enough about electricity to think that way.
|
---
It has very little to do with knowledge of electricity, and
everything to do with the perception of safety, so your doubts have
nothing to do with it. Try this: Ask a bunch of people ignorant
about electricity whether they'd rather hold onto an extension cord
with a fuse in it or an extension cord without a fuse in it and post
back with what you find, OK?
---
| Quote: | So what? the point was that your cables might not be thinner because
of the insulation requirements, even though the conductor diameter
might be smaller. In any case, apples for apples, a 13 amp 120V
extension cord would be thinner than a 13 amp 240V extension cord.
My point is it isn't thinner. Your 120 volt 13 amp cord will be just fine at 240 volts. The insulator thickness is probably a minimum reuqired to stop it being damaged through handling. Look how flimsy an IDE ribbon cable is. That's rated at 300 volts.
|
---
We're not talking about IDE cables, we're talking about extension
cords designed to carry mains voltages safely and the requirements
for _those_ cables, so knock off the horseshit about what'll be
"just fine" and what won't, and post some specifications.
---
| Quote: | And, it's not "may be more dangerous", it's "_is_ more dangerous",
so stop trying to trivialize the difference.
It is more dangerous, but it's still trivial.
---
I see that Darwin Award getting closer...
Nah, I'll more likely die in a car accident. At 140mph. Gotta love speed camera detectors!
|
---
Do you even know what a Darwin Award _is_?
---
| Quote: | ---
Sure it would, since it's your head that dictates where you put your
fingers.
In which case a THIN head would stop my heart getting knackered. A thick one would cause me to misplace my fingers.
|
---
Precisely. And you've already misplaced your fingers, by your own
admission, at least six times. To me, that shouts, "THICK!"
---
| Quote: | Don't like being made responsible for your inaccuracies? Too bad.
No, I don't care about minor inaccuracies. Try allowing for context, reading between the lines, etc. Don't take every word at dictionary meaning.
|
---
Convenient for you, huh? That would let you get away with all kinds
of crap with impunity. This is a _technical_ newsgroup for,
basically, newbies and if you can't be bothered to be accurate and
provide good information for them, what the hell good are you?
---
| Quote: | Don't like talking to a brick wall? Then stop talking.
I am alledgedly talking to a human being, not a computer. Humans are not 100% logical, so I don't expect to have to use precision words - this is not Germany.
|
---
So Germans aren't human?
So far all it seems you're interested in doing is playing "My dog's
bigger than your dog" and engaging in some banal crap, so you're
getting what you deserve.
Again, this _is_ a technical forum, so if you want to be technical
then you'll be expected to be precise with your language.
If you don't, and all you want to do is fuck around, the expect to
be fucked with. Welcome to usenet.
---
| Quote: | A causes B to cause C to cause D to cause E. What is the cause of E?
|
---
I don't take tests devised by idiots.
---
| Quote: | The question was "Who uses corded drills anyway?". Nothing was
mentioned about inconvenience or any of the rest of it.
So sorry for not sticking precisely to the subject (rolls eyes in disbelief).
|
---
Rolling your eyes in disbelief doesn't alter the fact that you got
busted.
---
| Quote: | _I_ use corded drills, outdoors, all the time and haven't been
electrocuted yet.
I can use my cordless drill in the rain.
---
"Anything you can do I can do better", huh?
Child.
I was merely stating an advantage, silly.
|
---
You're just playing silly games.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
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|
|
John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:14:24 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:22:24 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 00:01:43 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:20:58 -0000, Big Mouth Billy Bass <nannerbac@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 19 Nov 2005 21:25:40 -0800, via
1132464340.190007.178930@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
littleboyblu87@yahoo.com spake thusly:
I don't see what the problem would be with using a regular extension
cord with a vcr, tv, or cordless telephone since they're often located
in areas of a room where the cord is not exposed. One of my problems is
that my tv, vcr, and cable box can only be put in one area of the room
and there is only one outlet there. This means that I can only plug in
the tv and cable box. Where am I supposed to plug in the vcr at? That's
why I need an extension cord. But of course, the manual says not to use
it (and the same thing for the cordless telephone).
The best thing to do is to buy a switched outlet strip with a 15 amp
circuit breaker. By design, it will likely also include some minimal
surge suppression. The typical extension cord is not meant for
permanent applications. Too wimpy; too subject to abuse by overload.
In the UK, I simply buy a 4 way strip for £2.99 - it's got a 13A fuse both in the plug and in the strip (they all do, or they're illegal). For a quid extra I can get one with basic surge suppression.
---
If they were in the UK they might, also, but since they're not, your
comment has no relevance and one wonders why you bothered to post.
I was stating that we don't have the problem of "too wimpy; too subject to abuse by overload."
|
---
So what? That has nothing to to with solving his problem, it's just
you trying to lord it over him with your
"We're better than you are." crap.
His problem can easily be solved by buying an extension cord rated
for the service he needs, which we can easily find over here.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
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|
|
John Fields
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:16:28 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | You don't appear to be able to distinguish between an error and an imperfectly correct term.
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If it's imperfectly correct then it isn't correct; ergo it's
incorrect.
If it's incorrect then it isn't correct, and if it was your
intention to be correct then you made an error.
Consequently, there _is_ no difference between an error and an
imperfectly correct term.
Care to squirm around some more?
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
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John Fields
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:14:59 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:31:40 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:19:46 -0800, Peter Bennett
peterbb@somewhere.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:47:20 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:02:56 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
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All our 120V sockets are the same, so so can we. Our 120V sockets
are different from out 120V sockets for obvious reasons, but they're
all the same also, so that's not a problem either.
Try writing that again!
I suspect he meant to say "Our 120 V sockets are different from our
240 V sockets"
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Ooops... Yup, thanks!
See I told you having both voltages could cause them to get mixed up ;-)
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No, _they_ didn't get mixed up, I made an error.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer |
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Peter Hucker
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: Use of Extension Cord |
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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:58:27 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:12:04 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <no@spam.com
wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:12:55 -0000, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
So you have just told me that a #18 cord will happily take 15 amps. Yet earlier you compared it to a "13A monster" as though the 13A one was overkill?
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Not "happily" since, at 1.5 watts per foot it will get warm. But
nothing to worry about, either, unless you do something stupid like
run it under a rug.
People do tend to leave them coiled up if they are too long for the task. I've seen extensions on a reel (like a hosepipe) which have two current ratings: one for extended, and one for rolled up.
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Yes. Coiled up, the thermal resistance to ambient increases for the
cable surrounded by cable, so its temperature will increase.
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Which is presumably why they rate them lower than they can handle (your #18 will take 15 amps but not when colied, which they maybe assume you might).
| Quote: | It may very well be overkill, but then, overkill varies in the eye
of the beholder. Why don't you tell us what one of your 13A
monsters comprises?
They're not monsters, the cable isn't that thick. I'm not sure what # you'd call it (or even if the US and the UK use the same system), but if I use one with 13 amps going through it, it doesn't get the slightest bit warm.
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What's the wire diameter and the overall diameter of the jacket for
13A?
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7.5mm overall diameter. Not exactly unweildy.
| Quote: | I suppose if I was making my own extension cord (you can't buy them like this anymore)
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Are you only allowed to have 13 amp extension cords? What lengths?
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I dunno if it's illegal to have anything else - I don't pay attention to laws much! But they don't sell them. They come in any length. Common lengths are anything from 1 to 10 metres. Longer ones on reels usually for gardens.
| Quote: | I could use thinner cheaper wire, which I've done in the past.
But I always end up needing to use it for a different appliance
some other time which needs mor |
| |
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