| Author |
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Windsun
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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A few years ago we did a check on a bunch of UPS systems installed locally
for computer backup in some local city and company offices - about 30 total.
Of those, about 1/2 had batteries good enough to even fire up the UPS, and
about 1/2 of those that did were very marginal, such as only having enough
capacity for 10 minutes instead of the rated 30 minutes or so.
Going by that, I would bet that nearly half of the UPS systems in the
country don't work.
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"Anthony Matonak" <anthonym40@nothing.like.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6c2dnX8Fr7mnWcjenZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Sure, replace the batteries when they fail instead of waiting
a few years. :)
Anthony |
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Me
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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In article <uus5f.30032$Ge5.21918@fe10.lga>,
Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Ouch....my condolences to whoever had to clean that mess up..
TMT
Thanks. The CTO and Dir. of IT were conspiciously absent .....
It was left up to us net engineers and a couple of admins.
we flushed the floor with lots of water to neutralize the acid, did lots
of moping, and wiping, and cdw was happy to take our orders for
replacements.
|
Should have dumped a couple of boxes of Arm & Hammer Baking Soda
in the water before you flushed the floor, and moped it up.......
Me |
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LawsonHuntley@aol.com
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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Too_Many_Tools wrote:
| Quote: | Why do SLA batteries swell?
|
You've already got a lot of good replys in regard to the swelling of
the plastic cases being due to higher than normal temperatures and
pressures; and even much higher, such as happens in thermal runaway.
In addition, as the batteries age and lose capacity, a portion of the
active materials in both the anode and cathode are slowly forming
molecules of lead sulfate that are not being reversed in the charging
process. The lead sulfate molecule may become tribasic in nature, or
even tetrabasic (at higher temperatures), either of which is a larger
molecule than the original active material.
Even flooded cells in tight confinement will swell enough to become
very difficult to remove.
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Steve Thomas
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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Baking soda can be dangerous if there is any significant quantity of acid.
We had a material handling accident with a full pallet of new car
batteries once. A large sack of sodium bicarbonate was on hand for the
purpose of neutralizing small spills. Several pounds were dumped on the
resulting pool of acid. That was a big mistake. The fizzing release of CO2
in the pool of acid created an aerosol cloud of corrosive, choking, stinging
acid mist. It was not an experience I would care to repeat, and it was not
popular with the other people working in the area.
Based on this experience, we concluded that baking soda should only be
used to neutralize what remains after the primary cleanup has been
completed, or for very small spills.
"Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-2DCF11.10271219102005@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
| Quote: | In article <uus5f.30032$Ge5.21918@fe10.lga>,
Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Ouch....my condolences to whoever had to clean that mess up..
TMT
Thanks. The CTO and Dir. of IT were conspiciously absent .....
It was left up to us net engineers and a couple of admins.
we flushed the floor with lots of water to neutralize the acid, did lots
of moping, and wiping, and cdw was happy to take our orders for
replacements.
Should have dumped a couple of boxes of Arm & Hammer Baking Soda
in the water before you flushed the floor, and moped it up.......
Me |
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Too_Many_Tools
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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"The CTO and Dir. of IT were conspiciously absent ..... "
They are always are when there is work to do.
TMT |
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Too_Many_Tools
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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"This company wasn't serious about anything except the ceo's morning
plate of carrots "
Funny....wish I had come up with that comment.
TMT |
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Too_Many_Tools
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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Good comments...
If cells will swell and it is a known condition, then why do UPS
manufactures not allow for it in their battery case designs?
It would seem to be a common complaint from users and you would think
sooner or later the products would have space dedicated to this
condition.
TMT |
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Ian Stirling
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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In sci.chem.electrochem.battery Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Good comments...
If cells will swell and it is a known condition, then why do UPS
manufactures not allow for it in their battery case designs?
It would seem to be a common complaint from users and you would think
sooner or later the products would have space dedicated to this
condition.
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You think that they want you to replace the batteries? |
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Steve Spence
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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Too_Many_Tools wrote:
| Quote: | "This company wasn't serious about anything except the ceo's morning
plate of carrots "
Funny....wish I had come up with that comment.
TMT
You had to be there, listening to him stop down the halls yelling |
"Where's my damn carrots, I want my carrots ....."
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html |
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Solar Flare
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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Similar case. We had our emerg generator rewired and when the power went out in
the Ontario blackout from the Ohio faults the ventilation flaps to the generator
room were on insecure power and the generator would overheat.
Small oversights people miss until D day.
"danny burstein" <dannyb@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dj5ras$b6h$1@reader2.panix.com...
| Quote: | In <LawrenceSMITH-C162AA.11573419102005@news.verizon.net> Ecnerwal
LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> writes:
[ snip ]
with a flight plan to make your life miserable). A serious computer
center UPS should be down in some nice isolated basement room...
err, you're much better off with it
above any flood level...
which reminds me of what may, or may not, be a true
story back during the 1965 blackout.
(like all good urban legends, there's enough
plausability here, but I've been unable
to directly verify it).
In the Good Old Days before all the blackouts,
(and before modern day computers and such)
emergency power and lighting was in very few places.
One place usually equipped with something or another
was the local hospital.
NYC had (and has...) a very large municipal
facility called Bellevue. Well known (no) thanks
to generations of tv and movies as a psych place,
it's actually a fully capable (and nowadays
very highly regarded) institution.
Anyway, back in 1965 it had, by 1965 standards,
a pretty good emergency generator setup.
(In fact, in the early 1970s I saw the physical
power plant which had been installed Way Back When
We Built Things Right).
So... when the Sir Adam Beck substation did
its thing and plunged the northeast US (including NYC)
into darkness in 1965, Bellevue went out as well. But
a few minutes later, the generators came on and things
were back to (by 1965 standards) normal.
Except for one little problem.
Generators, especially back then, were big and ugly
and heavy. So... would be in a basement. (Additional
reason for this is it made getting the fuel to them
quite a bit simpler and more reliable).
ok... you know where I'm going...
Guess how high above sea level Bellevue is...
That's right, it's only a couple of dozen feet.
Now guess how high above sea level the
sub, sub, basement... where the generators
were located... is.
Eyup.
Now guess what critical part of the Bellevue plant
was _not_ hooked up to emergency power?
Eyup... the sump pumps.
So a couple of hours after the power went out,
the generators were underwater.
The end.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
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Robert Morein
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129759207.817079.267810@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Good comments...
If cells will swell and it is a known condition, then why do UPS
manufactures not allow for it in their battery case designs?
It would seem to be a common complaint from users and you would think
sooner or later the products would have space dedicated to this
condition.
TMT
My guess: shock damage during shipping and handling would be higher if the |
batteries fit loosely.
If they put in padding, they have to think about durability and resistance
to fire. Also, any insulating material would increase the chance the
batteries would go into thermal runaway.
I have a rack of Hawker Powersafe VM1500 cells. These way about 3000 lbs.
The cells fit very snugly into the rack. Apparently, the cell case itself is
not strong enough, by itself, for extended use. Cost was not a consideration
in this design. |
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Warren Weber
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129690971.151682.228850@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I just finished working on a number of UPSs.
One thing I noticed was that many of the Sealed Lead Acid (SLA)
batteries were swollen and hard to remove.
Why do SLA batteries swell?
I did notice that the UPS manufacturers apparently do not design for
this problem. Many of the UPSs had to be partially disassembled to
remove the batteries because of the tight quarters the battery
containers presented. Very poor design in my opinion.
Any suggestions for preventing a recurrence of this problem?
Thanks
TMT
|
I just had 2 Tripp Lite UPS fail the same way. Charging voltage was 17.5
volts. I e mailed Tripp Lite and asked for a schematic so I could tweak the
charging voltage down. They would not reply so I replaced with UPC brand. I
hope these are better designed. WW |
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Ecnerwal
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:03 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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In article <1129690971.151682.228850@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I just finished working on a number of UPSs.
One thing I noticed was that many of the Sealed Lead Acid (SLA)
batteries were swollen and hard to remove.
Why do SLA batteries swell?
|
Sulfation, mostly. Crystal growth pries the plates apart.
| Quote: | I did notice that the UPS manufacturers apparently do not design for
this problem.
|
Yes, they did. They designed for you to have this problem (tight case,
overcharge batteries as a matter of course), so that you would buy
another hunk of junk UPS in a few short years. They are delighted that
you are having this problem, but wish you would not waste your valuable
time prying out stuck batteries, when you could just buy a new, cheap
UPS...
| Quote: | Any suggestions for preventing a recurrence of this problem?
|
Sure - Buy an Outback inverter/charger and set up a battery bank (in a
large battery box, with space for them). Hang solar panels off of it, or
don't, as you prefer (works either way, cheaper without). Tain't cheap,
but it ain't inherently defective from the get-go (as most UPSs are),
either.
Some of the Trace stuff will work, cheaper, but the brains that made
Trace good are now at Outback, and (most, but not all) reports are that
the current management at Trace (aka Xantrex, aka the borg-like-company
that bought out most of the other inverter companies) is less than
delightful to deal with. Outback appears to be quite delightful to deal
with, and constantly improving things.
Not even a customer yet, but expect to be soon.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:47 am Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:02:30 -0600, "Warren Weber" <hiview68NO
SPAM@1236bresnan.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
I just had 2 Tripp Lite UPS fail the same way. Charging voltage was 17.5
volts. I e mailed Tripp Lite and asked for a schematic so I could tweak the
charging voltage down. They would not reply so I replaced with UPC brand. I
hope these are better designed. WW
In your dreams. They are just about as chintily designed and built as |
TrippLite and the old Minuteman. Anywhere they can save a penny per
unit, they make a dollar per hundred |
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Me
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:18 pm Post subject:
Re: UPS Batteries...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly |
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In article <FIGdnYEbr88bQ8veRVn-sw@bresnan.com>,
"Warren Weber" <hiview68NO SPAM@1236bresnan.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129690971.151682.228850@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I just finished working on a number of UPSs.
One thing I noticed was that many of the Sealed Lead Acid (SLA)
batteries were swollen and hard to remove.
Why do SLA batteries swell?
I did notice that the UPS manufacturers apparently do not design for
this problem. Many of the UPSs had to be partially disassembled to
remove the batteries because of the tight quarters the battery
containers presented. Very poor design in my opinion.
Any suggestions for preventing a recurrence of this problem?
Thanks
TMT
I just had 2 Tripp Lite UPS fail the same way. Charging voltage was 17.5
volts. I e mailed Tripp Lite and asked for a schematic so I could tweak the
charging voltage down. They would not reply so I replaced with UPC brand. I
hope these are better designed. WW
|
Tripp Lite has always been very BAD for supporting theeir stuff.....
don't expect to get any help from them.....
Me |
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