| Author |
Message |
Fred Abse
Guest
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 Posted:
Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:30 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:10:01 -0800, Winfield Hill wrote:
| Quote: | Fred Abse wrote...
[quoted text muted]
That's right. I guess it was your 'probably not "well paid"' comment
that set me off. Software engineers at IBM, Sun, Novell, Red Hat, HP,
Intel, CA, and Cisco, to mention a few places where massive Linux
programming is done, are probably quite well paid. Linux development is
serious business now.
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Yes, I guess it all revolves around what one considers "well paid". Maybe
I should have said "overpaid"
He is well paid who is well satisfied ...
--
Then there's duct tape ...
(Garrison Keillor)
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Fred Abse
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:30 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:21:46 -0800, Winfield Hill wrote:
| Quote: | Winfield Hill wrote...
[quoted text muted]
We can add Cisco to the list above, given that they have already
converted more than 2,000 of their engineers to Linux desktops, and have
plans to move many more laptop users to the platform over the next few
years. They say the driver for Linux on the desktop for them is not cost
savings, but easier support.
http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;1394751021;fp;4;fpid;3
One thing that happens when a company has many Linux users is that the
company becomes motivated to work on areas in Linux that can use
improvement, or they add features they need, which often end up back in
the community. While we can think of many features or changes Windows
needs, there's no effective way to bring them about.
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Amen to every word of that.
--
Then there's duct tape ...
(Garrison Keillor) |
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keith
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:30:22 +0000, Fred Abse wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:10:01 -0800, Winfield Hill wrote:
Fred Abse wrote...
[quoted text muted]
That's right. I guess it was your 'probably not "well paid"' comment
that set me off. Software engineers at IBM, Sun, Novell, Red Hat, HP,
Intel, CA, and Cisco, to mention a few places where massive Linux
programming is done, are probably quite well paid. Linux development is
serious business now.
|
....and has been for a decade.
| Quote: | Yes, I guess it all revolves around what one considers "well paid". Maybe
I should have said "overpaid"
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Now there's a stretch!
| Quote: | He is well paid who is well satisfied ...
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Yikes! That sounds downright commie!
--
Keith
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Winfield Hill
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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Fred Abse wrote...
| Quote: |
Winfield Hill wrote:
Fred Abse wrote...
[quoted text muted]
That's right. I guess it was your 'probably not "well paid"' comment
that set me off. Software engineers at IBM, Sun, Novell, Red Hat,
HP, Intel, CA, and Cisco, to mention a few places where massive Linux
programming is done, are probably quite well paid. Linux development
is serious business now.
Yes, I guess it all revolves around what one considers "well paid".
Maybe I should have said "overpaid"
He is well paid who is well satisfied ...
|
Good point. But be careful, satisfaction doesn't buy homes or put
food on the table. Somehow I doubt that many Linux programmers are
"overpaid." There's lots of competition in that field.
And soon the Indian outsourcing community will make inroads. But
my guess is Indian that outsource managers do better when a software
spec has been written, or verbally spelled out by a hiring-company's
developers. So perhaps the offshore-programming approach will not
work well with the expoding free-software initiatives.
In the case of Linux development, the idea-generators will rule.
--
Thanks,
- Win |
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Fred Abse
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:33:05 -0500, keith wrote:
| Quote: | He is well paid who is well satisfied ...
Yikes! That sounds downright commie!
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Sounds more like "Market Forces" to me. Written over 400 years ago.
--
Then there's duct tape ...
(Garrison Keillor) |
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Fred Abse
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:39:18 -0800, Winfield Hill wrote:
| Quote: | Fred Abse wrote...
Winfield Hill wrote:
Fred Abse wrote...
................................<snip>......................... |
| Quote: |
He is well paid who is well satisfied ...
Good point.
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I can't, in all honesty, take credit for that phrase. It was written by a
guy in Stratford-upon-Avon, England, about 400 years ago :-)
| Quote: | But be careful, satisfaction doesn't buy homes or put food
on the table
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I'd call that level "adequately paid". "Well paid", I would put at a level
that enables a moderate degree of luxury in addition.
| Quote: | Somehow I doubt that many Linux programmers are
"overpaid." There's lots of competition in that field.
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I agree with you there.
| Quote: |
And soon the Indian outsourcing community will make inroads. But my
guess is Indian that outsource managers do better when a software spec
has been written, or verbally spelled out by a hiring-company's
developers. So perhaps the offshore-programming approach will not work
well with the expoding free-software initiatives.
In the case of Linux development, the idea-generators will rule.
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As long as the bean-counters don't get too much of a hold :-(
--
Then there's duct tape ...
(Garrison Keillor) |
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keith
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:18 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:02:02 +0000, Fred Abse wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:33:05 -0500, keith wrote:
He is well paid who is well satisfied ...
Yikes! That sounds downright commie!
Sounds more like "Market Forces" to me. Written over 400 years ago.
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Nope. "Satisfied" smacks of "he's paid enough". i.e. communist.
--
Keith |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:53 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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I read in sci.electronics.design that keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote (in
<pan.2005.02.20.18.18.46.739081@att.bizzzz>) about 'Elektor Electronics
new website', on Sun, 20 Feb 2005:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:02:02 +0000, Fred Abse wrote:
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:33:05 -0500, keith wrote:
He is well paid who is well satisfied ...
Yikes! That sounds downright commie!
Sounds more like "Market Forces" to me. Written over 400 years ago.
Nope. "Satisfied" smacks of "he's paid enough". i.e. communist.
Well, almost any sentence can be distorted to mean something unlikely |
(it's normal practice with standards!). But 'satisfied' here surely
means 'what he agrees is sufficient'.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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keith
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:00 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:53:30 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:
| Quote: | I read in sci.electronics.design that keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote (in
pan.2005.02.20.18.18.46.739081@att.bizzzz>) about 'Elektor Electronics
new website', on Sun, 20 Feb 2005:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:02:02 +0000, Fred Abse wrote:
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:33:05 -0500, keith wrote:
He is well paid who is well satisfied ...
Yikes! That sounds downright commie!
Sounds more like "Market Forces" to me. Written over 400 years ago.
Nope. "Satisfied" smacks of "he's paid enough". i.e. communist.
Well, almost any sentence can be distorted to mean something unlikely
(it's normal practice with standards!). But 'satisfied' here surely
means 'what he agrees is sufficient'.
|
How do you excuse "overpaid", as in Fred's comment:
Yes, I guess it all revolves around what one considers "well paid".
Maybe I should have said "overpaid"
Programmers "overpaid" by whose standards? The politburo?
--
Keith |
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Fred Abse
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:59 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:18:46 -0500, keith wrote:
| Quote: | Nope. "Satisfied" smacks of "he's paid enough". i.e. communist
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Other way round. The recipient satisfied with the payment that has been
agreed. That's bargaining. The basis of capitalism.
--
Then there's duct tape ...
(Garrison Keillor) |
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keith
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:59:53 +0000, Fred Abse wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:18:46 -0500, keith wrote:
Nope. "Satisfied" smacks of "he's paid enough". i.e. communist
Other way round. The recipient satisfied with the payment that has been
agreed. That's bargaining. The basis of capitalism.
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But then you go on to say:
Maybe I should have said "overpaid"
Which is worthy of a Cossack hat.
--
Keith |
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Franc Zabkar
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:34:27 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> put finger
to keyboard and composed:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:59:53 +0000, Fred Abse wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:18:46 -0500, keith wrote:
Nope. "Satisfied" smacks of "he's paid enough". i.e. communist
Other way round. The recipient satisfied with the payment that has been
agreed. That's bargaining. The basis of capitalism.
|
A perfect capitalist bargain is struck when neither party is
satisfied.
| Quote: | But then you go on to say:
Maybe I should have said "overpaid"
Which is worthy of a Cossack hat.
|
Cossacks were *not* communists. In fact your glib remark does them a
gross disservice. During WW2 they fought on both sides, some to free
Russia from the existing tyranny of Stalin, others to protect Russia
from the impending tyranny of Hitler.
See http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/6150/cos.html
After WW2 the British intentionally repatriated tens of thousands of
Cossack POWs and refugees (and many others) knowing that they would
all be butchered by Stalin (ref. "The Minister and the Massacre"
(1986) by Nikolai Tolstoy).
- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email. |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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I read in sci.electronics.design that Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar@optussnet.com.au> wrote (in <qqri11li4037j2pv18mpj37pd0jqrqg32c
@4ax.com>) about 'Elektor Electronics new website', on Mon, 21 Feb 2005:
| Quote: | After WW2 the British intentionally repatriated tens of thousands of
Cossack POWs and refugees (and many others) knowing that they would all
be butchered by Stalin (ref. "The Minister and the Massacre" (1986) by
Nikolai Tolstoy).
|
It was bad, but there was not much choice. There was a real fear that
Stalin would switch his attack to US, Britain and France, and this issue
would very probably have triggered that.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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Ken Smith
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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In article <cv90p60sk9@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote:
[....]
| Quote: | Good point. But be careful, satisfaction doesn't buy homes or put
food on the table. Somehow I doubt that many Linux programmers are
"overpaid." There's lots of competition in that field.
|
Many Linux programmers work for free and are over paid at that :)
I have been surprised by the quality of the software that people develope
for free. This surprise has usually been in the positive direction. It
is a weird "business model" but I can see it becoming a major force in the
future. I have often written software for a specific task that could,
chances are, save others a few hours of time. There is no way I could
market such software and make a profit but if I had some way to easily
share it and the others had a fast way to find it, I would share it.
| Quote: | And soon the Indian outsourcing community will make inroads. But
my guess is Indian that outsource managers do better when a software
spec has been written, or verbally spelled out by a hiring-company's
developers. So perhaps the offshore-programming approach will not
work well with the expoding free-software initiatives.
|
I predict that within 20 years, Indian companies will be outsourcing in a
big way. Even the largest democracy will find it doesn't have enough of
certain types of workers.
--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge |
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Richard the Dreaded Liber
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject:
Re: Elektor Electronics new website |
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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:21:16 +1100, Franc Zabkar wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:34:27 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> put finger
to keyboard and composed:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:59:53 +0000, Fred Abse wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:18:46 -0500, keith wrote:
Nope. "Satisfied" smacks of "he's paid enough". i.e. communist
Other way round. The recipient satisfied with the payment that has been
agreed. That's bargaining. The basis of capitalism.
A perfect capitalist bargain is struck when neither party is
satisfied.
|
Bullshit. That is absolutely wrong. If you believe this to be true,
then someone has taught you an untruth, that could be a very dangerous
thing if it becomes popular.
Under the "perfect" capitalist system, if both parties don't make a profit,
they simply will choose to not do the deal. Under Capitalism, _everybody_
wins, because every transaction is between two people, each of which is
seeking a profit. If I have a bunch of A, but would like to have some
B, and you have a bunch of B, but would like to have some A, then you
and I can discuss how much of your B is worth how much of my A, and we
both come away better off in our own way - I have more B, which I wanted,
and have a little less A, which I didn't want all that much anyway, and
you have some more A, which you wanted, and didn't pay any more B for
it than you felt was fair and equitable.
_THAT_ is what Free Trade is all about.
Hope This Helps!
Rich |
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