| Author |
Message |
Don Bruder
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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In article <pan.2005.09.20.22.42.52.52590@nospam.gmail.com>,
"John H." <mistamaila@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | ok here is the problem now. The cable guy came the other day, and
after plugging my power into his generator, we observed that the
shaking had gone away, and i no longer had a "hum" on my tv card
display, or rising horizontal bar.
So we told this to the electrician, who came today.
he said the following
"unable to fix cable line problem. new grounds run, all
connection tightened. I did find a loose neutral in main panel and
fixed it"
yet the problem remains! Now I am waiting for the cable people to
come back, but I am almost positive it's some electrical thing, or
something.
Even when I disconnect from coax on wall, my monitor is still
shaking.
what can i do now?
|
You've got a magnetic field somewhere near the monitor. Move the system.
--
Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.
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John H.
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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|
ok, here's a picture of my setup, if this helps.
http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/429215e1z47b1e588/7ee9/__sr_/1c6a.jpg?phk2KMDB2RHVAWoz
it's just like the way i had it at old apt, too.
Like i said, why did it work OK when i plugged into generator?
thanks
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:11:05 -0500, John H. wrote:
| Quote: | but how can that be the problem, if when I leave it where it is,
but plug it in to cable person's generator, it works OK?
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:12:01 +0000, Don Bruder wrote:
In article <pan.2005.09.20.22.42.52.52590@nospam.gmail.com>,
"John H." <mistamaila@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
ok here is the problem now. The cable guy came the other day, and
after plugging my power into his generator, we observed that the
shaking had gone away, and i no longer had a "hum" on my tv card
display, or rising horizontal bar.
So we told this to the electrician, who came today.
he said the following
"unable to fix cable line problem. new grounds run, all
connection tightened. I did find a loose neutral in main panel and
fixed it"
yet the problem remains! Now I am waiting for the cable people to
come back, but I am almost positive it's some electrical thing, or
something.
Even when I disconnect from coax on wall, my monitor is still
shaking.
what can i do now?
You've got a magnetic field somewhere near the monitor. Move the system. |
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John H.
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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but how can that be the problem, if when I leave it where it is,
but plug it in to cable person's generator, it works OK?
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:12:01 +0000, Don Bruder wrote:
| Quote: | In article <pan.2005.09.20.22.42.52.52590@nospam.gmail.com>,
"John H." <mistamaila@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
ok here is the problem now. The cable guy came the other day, and
after plugging my power into his generator, we observed that the
shaking had gone away, and i no longer had a "hum" on my tv card
display, or rising horizontal bar.
So we told this to the electrician, who came today.
he said the following
"unable to fix cable line problem. new grounds run, all
connection tightened. I did find a loose neutral in main panel and
fixed it"
yet the problem remains! Now I am waiting for the cable people to
come back, but I am almost positive it's some electrical thing, or
something.
Even when I disconnect from coax on wall, my monitor is still
shaking.
what can i do now?
You've got a magnetic field somewhere near the monitor. Move the system. |
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John H.
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:35 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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I had the ground line from the coax surge protector go to
a screw on socket.
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:01:56 +1200, Ken Taylor wrote:
| Quote: | "John H." <mistamaila@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.09.17.19.46.20.824522@nospam.gmail.com...
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:03:19 +1200, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2005-09-09, John H. <mistamaila@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
hi, I have two monitors connected to my ati card.
I have
coax on wall - > cable modem surge protector (very small
-> 2- way splitter -> cable modem
-> tv card on pc
there is a line off the surge protector which goes into screw
in order to ground it.
OK, so there are several weird situations from this. If I have
coax from splitter to TV card, and I do not ground it to wall
outlet, both monitor displays shake REALLY heavily. If I ground
it to wall outlet, large 19 inch CRT shakes some, but not nearly
as much(where I am at now).
Now, if I move computer and two monitors to other side of room
with no peripherals attached, no shaking. If I simply plug the
surge protector into the coax on this side of the room, and ground
is connected, even though NOTHING Is connected to surge protector,
on the clear other side of the room, both monitors begin shaking!
I think the surge protector is causing a ground loop in your coaxial
and/or mains cable.
to reduce this effect possible move it closer to the service
entrance for the electricity and cable. that way the loop will
exist mostly outside your dwelling and thefore the electromagnetic
effects of it will bereduced.
how do you mean "Service entrance".
It's a small apartment, but the other one I was at was smaller
and i got rid of the "shaking" there.
I did, however, order a new UPS, so I don't know if that will help.
If I remove the coax surge protector, it seems to sometimes
be worse.
So what did you do at the other place to get rid of the shaking?
Ken |
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Don Bruder
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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|
In article <pan.2005.09.21.00.11.04.321220@nospam.gmail.com>,
"John H." <mistamaila@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | but how can that be the problem, if when I leave it where it is,
but plug it in to cable person's generator, it works OK?
|
My first thought would be that the source of the magnetic field -
whatever it happens to be - isn't being powered by the generator.
Had a similar problem that I beat my head against for months, before
realizing it was the el-cheapo amplified speakers that sat on either
side of the monitor. The critical clue that finally sunk in: The monitor
would "dance" to the music I was playing.
Moving the left speaker (which turned out to be the one containing the
system's amplifier and its power supply) about 8 feet away from the
monitor cured the problem. Putting it back would make the problem return.
--
Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details. |
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Noah Little
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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Don Bruder wrote:
| Quote: | Had a similar problem that I beat my head against for months, before
realizing it was the el-cheapo amplified speakers that sat on either
side of the monitor. The critical clue that finally sunk in: The monitor
would "dance" to the music I was playing.
|
In an office building where I once worked, we had a row of PCs (shared
resource, before desktop machines) on which the monitor images would
often shimmy at the same time. It took us longer than it should have to
realize that the wall they were against was next to an elevator shaft,
and every time the elevator car came by, the disturbance in the magnetic
field would show up on the monitors.
--
Noah |
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w_tom
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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You are driving off anyone with experience to help you.
When such people provide a list of things to try, a person
without any electromagnetic field training does not select
which tests he feels are valid. He says, "Yes Sir", does all
those tests, and reports back what was discovered.
Rather than want to solve the problem, you posted:
| Quote: | but how can that be the problem, if when I leave it where it
is, but plug it in to cable person's generator, it works OK?
You are not going to get an answer to that question because 1) |
that generator provided virtually zero useful information and
2) because you post again saying you know more than people
with 30 and 40 years experience doing this stuff. The answer
to your question is do it yesterday.
You want to solve the shaking? Then what happened when you
ran the system out on the lawn connected to a 50 foot three
wire extension cord. How did the system perform when
connected to the same power cord and wall receptacle, both
sitting inside the room where shaking happens and out on the
lawn? Notice we are not for a minute trying to fix the
problem. Obviously running on the lawn is no cure. But
again, stop trying to fix the problem. We don't care, yet, to
fix the problem. By trying to fix the problem, you have taken
a simple one day solution and turned it into a week long
project.
By now you should have tested the system elsewhere in the
apartment AND identified walls containing power wires. Even
better do that same test in each location powered from the
original wall receptacle (50 foot 3 wire power cord) and from
the wall receptacle nearby the new test location. Ignore what
the cable man's generator did. It is not relevant or useful
until you have performed tests recommended by those with both
experience and training in E-M fields.
Also rather useless is discussion of a new ground. Both ends
of a ground wire are electrically different, as posted
previously. All grounds are different. Therefore the only
useful information about a new ground wire says from where to
where, how long, and how it was routed. Is the new ground a
safety ground, an earth ground, ground to cable, ground from
AC electric box to earth? Just saying new ground tells us
virtually nothing - zero. Information as useful as that
generator.
Does the cable TV wire now connect less than 10 foot to the
same earth ground used by AC electric box? Even connecting
the cable to a ground screw on a wall receptacle is not same
ground. Notice why we have motherboard ground, earth ground,
safety ground, cable ground block, etc. All are different
even when interconnected. But again, this is why when you are
instructed to move the system around the room and test, then
you do it and not second guess using symptoms create by a
generator.
BTW, you don't seem to get it. You keep looking for an
electric wire solution when others keep saying - magnetic
fields. Magnetic fields. Massive difference. Magnetic
fields. We know you are not getting it because you even tried
what would be a total waste of time - the filter.
URL for the picture does not work. But it really does not
help much. That picture would not show anything useful.
Again, notice the expression so many posted: magnetic
fields. Take a picture of the magnetic fields and things that
would create such fields. IOW what is behind that wall. Only
then are you demonstrating a grasp of what was posted.
You jumped on a total nonsense idea - the Radio Shack
filter. You ignored important suggestions such as Don Bruder:
| Quote: | You've got a magnetic field somewhere near the monitor.
Move the system.
|
Don was onto a classic suspect. But again, without any E-M
field training, you again challenged a best suggestion - and
wasted time worrying about that generator. You did not even
once yet answer the critical question of how cable and AC
electric are bonded where they enter the building. Welcome
to the art of EMI/RFI. Now start performing experiments to
learn the source of the problem. Stop trying to fix the
problem - thereby making the problem insolvable.
"John H." wrote:
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John H.
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:00 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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For one thing, the condescension is not at all necessary. Saying
I am not interested in solving the problem after I
1)get the cable people to come see if it's on their end (as far
as humming on tv)
2)get an electrician to come fix what the cable guy said the
problem was, as far as grounding and neutral and what not, is
just not honest. Not to mention, I also bought an isolator, as
was suggested on here. I was clearly told on here that it could
be a grounding issue, which of course the electrician addressed.
So how in the world can you act like I haven't done any of the
steps?
As I clearly stated before, I did test it elsewhere in the
apartment, and the same problem occurred. Why are you telling me
to do that again after I have already done it and seen that
the same problem occurs?
I never disagreed that it was a magnetic field or what not, I was
going on what I was told here and by the cable guy then the
electrician.
Saying I challenged a suggestion when I was told several times
to try an isolator is just, again, completely dishonest of you,
as well as condescending. You act as though I am going off
what I think would make sense as opposed to what I have continually
heard on here, been told by the cable guy(About the grounding), and
then been told by the electrician. How in the world can you
say someone is trying to have their own solution when they have
consulted numerous professionals that are far more familiar with
the symptoms than he?
-- You jumped on a total nonsense idea - the Radio Shack
---filter. You ignored important suggestions such as Don Bruder:
| Quote: | You've got a magnetic field somewhere near the monitor.
Move the system.
|
I HAVE tried moving the system, which I also stated, and
it did not solve the problem. Why are you lecturing me like a child
when you clearly overlooked the fact that I stated I had already
tried this approach?
I appreciate all people's help on here, but if you are going to
overlook solutions I have tried and make outrageous claims about
me not listening to advice when I have clearly demonstrated I have
done so, all the while being condescending toward me, perhaps you
personally would be happier not responding to my posts anymore.
thanks
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:09:53 -0400, w_tom wrote:
| Quote: | You are driving off anyone with experience to help you.
When such people provide a list of things to try, a person
without any electromagnetic field training does not select
which tests he feels are valid. He says, "Yes Sir", does all
those tests, and reports back what was discovered.
Rather than want to solve the problem, you posted:
but how can that be the problem, if when I leave it where it
is, but plug it in to cable person's generator, it works OK?
You are not going to get an answer to that question because 1)
that generator provided virtually zero useful information and
2) because you post again saying you know more than people
with 30 and 40 years experience doing this stuff. The answer
to your question is do it yesterday.
You want to solve the shaking? Then what happened when you
ran the system out on the lawn connected to a 50 foot three
wire extension cord. How did the system perform when
connected to the same power cord and wall receptacle, both
sitting inside the room where shaking happens and out on the
lawn? Notice we are not for a minute trying to fix the
problem. Obviously running on the lawn is no cure. But
again, stop trying to fix the problem. We don't care, yet, to
fix the problem. By trying to fix the problem, you have taken
a simple one day solution and turned it into a week long
project.
By now you should have tested the system elsewhere in the
apartment AND identified walls containing power wires. Even
better do that same test in each location powered from the
original wall receptacle (50 foot 3 wire power cord) and from
the wall receptacle nearby the new test location. Ignore what
the cable man's generator did. It is not relevant or useful
until you have performed tests recommended by those with both
experience and training in E-M fields.
Also rather useless is discussion of a new ground. Both ends
of a ground wire are electrically different, as posted
previously. All grounds are different. Therefore the only
useful information about a new ground wire says from where to
where, how long, and how it was routed. Is the new ground a
safety ground, an earth ground, ground to cable, ground from
AC electric box to earth? Just saying new ground tells us
virtually nothing - zero. Information as useful as that
generator.
Does the cable TV wire now connect less than 10 foot to the
same earth ground used by AC electric box? Even connecting
the cable to a ground screw on a wall receptacle is not same
ground. Notice why we have motherboard ground, earth ground,
safety ground, cable ground block, etc. All are different
even when interconnected. But again, this is why when you are
instructed to move the system around the room and test, then
you do it and not second guess using symptoms create by a
generator.
BTW, you don't seem to get it. You keep looking for an
electric wire solution when others keep saying - magnetic
fields. Magnetic fields. Massive difference. Magnetic
fields. We know you are not getting it because you even tried
what would be a total waste of time - the filter.
URL for the picture does not work. But it really does not
help much. That picture would not show anything useful.
Again, notice the expression so many posted: magnetic
fields. Take a picture of the magnetic fields and things that
would create such fields. IOW what is behind that wall. Only
then are you demonstrating a grasp of what was posted.
You jumped on a total nonsense idea - the Radio Shack
filter. You ignored important suggestions such as Don Bruder:
You've got a magnetic field somewhere near the monitor.
Move the system.
Don was onto a classic suspect. But again, without any E-M
field training, you again challenged a best suggestion - and
wasted time worrying about that generator. You did not even
once yet answer the critical question of how cable and AC
electric are bonded where they enter the building. Welcome
to the art of EMI/RFI. Now start performing experiments to
learn the source of the problem. Stop trying to fix the
problem - thereby making the problem insolvable.
"John H." wrote:
ok, here's a picture of my setup, if this helps.
http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/429215e1z47b1e588/7ee9/__sr_/1c6a.jpg?phk2KMDB2RHVAWoz
it's just like the way i had it at old apt, too.
Like i said, why did it work OK when i plugged into generator? |
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John H.
Guest
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John H.
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:35 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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ok, apparently I solved a large portion of the problem.
It was apparently not a magnetic issue at all, because if I ran
an extension cord from power cord of monitors to another room, the
shaking would go away for the most part, but just not in the current
room, for whatever reason.
Eventually I figured I'd try the grounder thing you can buy
that converts 3 prong to 2 prong, and, on one of the sockets near
the computer, it worked! At least, just as much, for the most part,
as being in the other room. Strange thing is, if I plug it into the
top plug of the same socket, the shaking returns.
Apparently it was an electrical issue, but I have to deal with
what I have in this apartment:)
thanks for the help everyone |
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John H.
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:35 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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ok, it's fixed! The TV Now now longer has a hum bar as well!
What I had to do was, for some odd reason
use a 3-2 prong converter for computer, and for monitors. The
bizarre thing is, if I do as they recommend and ground the bottom
of the converter into screw, the shaking comes back, so I cannot
do that.
But does this present a fire hazard now, as the two do not seem to
be grounded? |
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Tomi Holger Engdahl
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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"John H." <mistamaila@nospam.gmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | ok, it's fixed! The TV Now now longer has a hum bar as well!
What I had to do was, for some odd reason
use a 3-2 prong converter for computer, and for monitors. The
bizarre thing is, if I do as they recommend and ground the bottom
of the converter into screw, the shaking comes back, so I cannot
do that.
|
There is nothing bizarre on that.
Your problem is related to ground connection. It is called
"ground loop".
When you disconnected the ground connection with a 3-2 prong converter,
the ground connection was cut and problem goes away. But do did
the electrical safety that the ground connection created.
When you added that " ground the bottom of the converter into screw",
you re-created the ground connection. No woders that shaking came back.
| Quote: | But does this present a fire hazard now, as the two do not seem to
be grounded?
|
The most danger with the missing ground connection is the electrocution!
--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/ |
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w_tom
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:21 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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As posted repeatedly, he was trying to fix the problem
rather than first identify it. Tomi has correctly noted that
John H simply broke something rather than solve his probable
magnetic field problem. To remain in denial, he then declares
it an electrical problem. He did the first test, saw some
critical test data, then immediately concluded the problem
solved. He even admits he does not know why the shaking has
stopped - and does not care.
Somewhere in a previous post, he even mentioned running a
ground wire from the AC wall receptacle screw to cable modem.
Just more ground loops to create magnetic fields or other
problems. However John H has made it clear that he did not
want to solve the problem. Worse - he takes insult when this
is explained. John H jumped at every kludge solution until
monitor stopped shaking.
Operating with an isolated ground may even cause a cable
wire fire inside wall should an internal electrical fault
occur in his computer boxes. But apparently since that fire
has not yet happened, then it will never happen. Again, this
is what happens when one wants the immediate solution rather
than first identifying the reason for the problem.
Tomi Holger Engdahl identified but some problems with John
H's solution. Somehow this does not matter as long as the
monitor stops shaking. Clearly John H knows that running his
equipment without a safety ground is sufficient. He
immediately blames the safety ground - speculation declared as
a fact - without learning why his monitor shakes. He blames
building wiring without even knowing anything about the
building wiring. It is why accidents don't happen. Failures
are directly traceable to humans who just know without first
learning why.
This post is not for John H. He is simply the example of
why failures happen - sometimes why people are killed
uselessly. He only wanted the quick solution and could not be
bothered to learn reasons why.
Tomi Holger Engdahl wrote:
| Quote: | "John H." <mistamaila@nospam.gmail.com> writes:
ok, it's fixed! The TV Now now longer has a hum bar as well!
What I had to do was, for some odd reason
use a 3-2 prong converter for computer, and for monitors. The
bizarre thing is, if I do as they recommend and ground the bottom
of the converter into screw, the shaking comes back, so I cannot
do that.
There is nothing bizarre on that.
Your problem is related to ground connection. It is called
"ground loop".
When you disconnected the ground connection with a 3-2 prong converter,
the ground connection was cut and problem goes away. But do did
the electrical safety that the ground connection created.
When you added that " ground the bottom of the converter into screw",
you re-created the ground connection. No woders that shaking came back.
But does this present a fire hazard now, as the two do not seem to
be grounded?
The most danger with the missing ground connection is the electrocution! |
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John H.
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:27 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:59:56 +0300, Tomi Holger Engdahl wrote:
| Quote: | "John H." <mistamaila@nospam.gmail.com> writes:
ok, it's fixed! The TV Now now longer has a hum bar as well!
What I had to do was, for some odd reason
use a 3-2 prong converter for computer, and for monitors. The
bizarre thing is, if I do as they recommend and ground the bottom
of the converter into screw, the shaking comes back, so I cannot
do that.
There is nothing bizarre on that.
Your problem is related to ground connection. It is called
"ground loop".
When you disconnected the ground connection with a 3-2 prong converter,
the ground connection was cut and problem goes away. But do did
the electrical safety that the ground connection created.
When you added that " ground the bottom of the converter into screw",
you re-created the ground connection. No woders that shaking came back.
But does this present a fire hazard now, as the two do not seem to
be grounded?
The most danger with the missing ground connection is the electrocution!
|
So is that to say it is an electrical problem? if that is the
case, why did the electrician who came in and looked find no
such issue?:( |
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John H.
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:52 am Post subject:
Re: due to some kind of interference, monitor display is "sh |
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| Quote: | As posted repeatedly, he was trying to fix the problem
rather than first identify it. Tomi has correctly noted that
John H simply broke something rather than solve his probable
magnetic field problem. To remain in denial, he then declares
it an electrical problem. He did the first test, saw some
critical test data, then immediately concluded the problem
solved. He even admits he does not know why the shaking has
stopped - and does not care.
Somewhere in a previous post, he even mentioned running a
ground wire from the AC wall receptacle screw to cable modem.
Just more ground loops to create magnetic fields or other
problems. However John H has made it clear that he did not
want to solve the problem. Worse - he takes insult when this
is explained. John H jumped at every kludge solution until
monitor stopped shaking.
Operating with an isolated ground may even cause a cable
wire fire inside wall should an internal electrical fault
occur in his computer boxes. But apparently since that fire
has not yet happened, then it will never happen. Again, this
is what happens when one wants the immediate solution rather
than first identifying the reason for the problem.
Tomi Holger Engdahl identified but some problems with John
H's solution. Somehow this does not matter as long as the
monitor stops shaking. Clearly John H knows that running his
equipment without a safety ground is sufficient. He
immediately blames the safety ground - speculation declared as
a fact - without learning why his monitor shakes. He blames
building wiring without even knowing anything about the
building wiring. It is why accidents don't happen. Failures
are directly traceable to humans who just know without first
learning why.
This post is not for John H. He is simply the example of
why failures happen - sometimes why people are killed
uselessly. He only wanted the quick solution and could not be
bothered to learn reasons why. On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:59:56 +0300, Tomi
|
I'm sorry, were you having a conversation with someone else?
Did you just completely ignore what I had said? I was told it was
a magnetic field, so I should move things around. I told you what
happened when I did that. I was told it was a grounding issue, and an
electrical issue, so I called an electrician in, who said everything as
far as grounding and neutral lines was OK. He told me to call the cable
people, who again came out, and said it was an electrical issue.
To say I am being stubborn or not listening and looking for some immediate
answer, or some quick solution, after having THREE Professionals come out
is just blatantly dishonest ... seriously.
It's an apartment ... I am limited in what I can do. The landlady and the
electrician both said it was not an electrical issue, therefore I had no
other choice as far as that goes other than to try something myself, which
I did.
This post IS for you, and you are the example of why people often don't
seek help because because they are looked down upon by ivory tower know it
alls who really don't know the solution. |
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